Returning to Grantham

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LNER4479
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by LNER4479 »

jwealleans wrote:Probably a return working after a named train. I ought to know what the Grantham A4s mainly did, but OTTOMH I can't remember.
According to RCTS 2A, 4494 Osprey and 4466 Herring Gull were allocated to Grantham (the first A4's to be allocated there I believe) at the start of the summer 1938 timetable to share a two day diagram covering the operation of the heavy overnight sleepers to Edinburgh and back. One would work out on one night on the Aberdonian Grantham-Edin then sleepover at Haymarket, returning back with the Night Scotsman the following night. Grantham crew would most likely handover their charge northbound at York (to a Gateshead crew?) then wait to bring t'other one back 'home' later in the night.

So interesting to see Osprey in action at Grantham in the day time! There's no earthly reason however why she shouldn't have been used for a 'filling in' local service during the day time. Where the train actually is gives a slight clue as it appears to be negotiating the crossover from the down relief to down main immediately south of the station. I think this was only signalled as a shunt move so Osprey would therefore appear to be bringing stock into the mainline platform to form a northbound service (assumed to Doncaster). The tender seems to be full of coal which would seem to indicate she's just 'come off shed'. Perhaps an afternoon service?

The headboard may therefore be the Aberdonian one, simply being kept handy for when the loco gets back to Grantham for its main working (although she would need to go back on shed to turn and no doubt a top up of coal).

And the gas wagon possibly being worked back to Donny for refilling, simply being a convenient way of transporting it.

Of course, all this postulating may be completely wide of the mark - do feel free to shoot me down in flames!
(recreating pre-war Grantham in model form http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9076.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Tom F »

"Robert" when we next meet, there is some mention of the Grantham diagrams in my 1938 Railway Observer. May prove interesting.
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LNER4479
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by LNER4479 »

10-4 Good Buddy :D
(recreating pre-war Grantham in model form http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9076.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 1H was 2E »

Now there's something I don't understand. Please don't think I'm trying to activate a "West Coast was better than East Coast" argument BUT why did the Northbound Aberdonian have a loco change at Grantham, with the second engine working from Grantham to Aberdeen but the first only working KX to Grantham?

As the loco on the Grantham-KX-Grantham legs was a Grantham one presumably on arrival there it had to go for "Disposal" - that's assuming it just had a quick rakeover at KX and went straight back . The fireman would have therefore to arrive at Grantham with a low, even fire, boiler full and plenty of steam. Would this not be difficult to achieve with the hill from Peterboro'? I know that a KX engine would have to be in this state on arrival at KX, but easy running for the last few miles seems more acceptable at the end of a journey rather than only a little bit into it.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by LNER4479 »

I'm no expert on the subject but from what I've picked up over the years (plus some experience of the matter on the real railway), loco diagrams don't always appear logical and other factors come into play.

In particular, the factors affecting the crew are at least as significant as what happens to the loco. Clearly a loco fresh on a train at KX is more than capable of working beyond Grantham but, on the other hand, KX-Grantham-KX in steam days was ideal in terms of a home crew (from KX) doing an out and back working within a comfortable eight hour day - same argument for a Grantham crew doing Grantham-KX-Grantham.

What little information I do have (in the Cawston book) is that when the original Gresley A1's were allocated to Grantham, they were put on double-manned workings doing either Grantham-York-KX-Grantham or vice versa. Hence one Grantham crew would work Grantham-York and back (another handy eight hour day) then hand over to their mates at Grantham for the second half of the loco's day. 16 hours productive work for the loco (approx. 400 miles - very respectable for the era) and two nice eight hour traincrew diagrams.

Hence, from an operational point of view, Grantham worked well as a loco change point. So it is possible that the KX-Grantham leg of the Aberdonian was one of these turns 'fitting in'. On the other hand, it could have been a King's Cross working which returned back to London last thing (which my money would be on - just). Although I don't have any details, ironically the more prestigious KX (top shed) locos would be more restricted in that KX-York-KX would be too much for one crew, so what happens to them when they get to York? Ride back on the cushions most likely, with another crew riding out to bring the loco back. Either that, or the KX crew lodge at York. Neither is as efficient a working.

Although I hesitate to mention it(!), the union-ised nature of the industry did have its impact on the way diagrams were worked out. Diagrams ending at 3 o'clock in the morning tended not to be popular(!) and would probably have been resisted by local committees. There is also the thorny issue of mileage payments. Again, according to Cawston, 150 miles was regarded as a fair day's work for a traincrew and every 15 miles above that attracted one hour's extra pay (in the 1980's on BR this limit was 200 miles and the eight hour day was 'sacrosanct' - that's what the 'flexible rostering' row was all about!). I suspect lodging turns would also attract bonus payments. So there would always be a delicate 'balance' between what 'management' wanted and what they would be prepared to pay for (the unions of course welcoming as much bonus payments as could come their way!)

A fascinating area of railway working and I could write a lot more - but I'd prefer those who really knew (eg Roy@34F) to comment more knowledgeably.

(Note that the Grantham A4 came off at Edinburgh - it didn't work right through to Aberdeen. That WOULD have been some diagram!)
(recreating pre-war Grantham in model form http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9076.
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ROY@34F
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by ROY@34F »

Yes, I would agree largely with what you say "Robert", in fact it's a very contentious subject, far too complicated for me .
All I would say is that engine diagrams were often completely separate to the crew diagrams. eg. a KX engine going to York would'nt have the same crew all that way, or most likely not, I'd better say; and Newcastle was the destination for KX men lodging, (a minimum of 9 hours I believe in my time), not that I ever did it....never achieved such heights !!
As for engines coming off at Grantham, and having to "run the fire down"ready for disposal; well that would be "in mind", but not that critical. The fire would soon die down anyway while standing on the ashpit road, with no draught much to keep it lively. You needed a bit of good fire to save, if just "cleaning" the fire.
Others may have different opinions of course.

Regards, Roy.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Iron Duke »

Sorting through my clippings box I came across this interesting picture.
Can anyone confirm if this is Grantham and if so the approx date?

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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 61070 »

There are a number of significant detail differences between the the coal stage in the above photo and that at Grantham as it is known to have appeared in the 1930s. So I think in this picture No. 2580 is not at Grantham, though I can't say where it is.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 1H was 2E »

Just a word about loco diagrams.
Certainly in the 70's and 80's, there was the fashion for very long 'cyclic' diagrams; at the end of each diagram the number of the diagram the loco worked the next day would be shown. Following these through, it seemed to be many days before the loco got back to the first diagram again, (sometimes it never seemed to...) and of course any cycle of more than 5 days would hit SO and SuO conditions. However, on my occasional visits to controls in the 70's and 80's I noticed that power controllers spent a great deal of time manipulating locos between diagrams, for a number of good reasons*, such that it seemed unlikely that any loco stayed on the progression for very long. It would be interesting to know if this happened in steam days; I recall on "Railway Roundabout" ca 1961 a BR spokesman talked excitedly about cyclic diagrams for LMS Pacifics, so maybe steam diagrams were not always simple.

*examples: freight train cape or pine traffic, balanced in both directions; freight special required; loco needs fuel/water; non- terminal defect that means it has to work to DMD; shortage of type 4 1/2s means a lower power loco is substituted on a train within the latter's load capability. Some power controllers have even been known to be biased towards particular loco types when they are being withdrawn.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by ejgray52 »

All fascinating stuff - thank you guys! Casting my mind back to when I was but a lad (10 in 1963), I remember one of the highlights of my annual visit to my grandparents in Grantham were a couple of sessions with my uncle at the station. One of them to see the down 'Aberdonian'. Through the mists of time I remember it being Deltic hauled and arriving at 9:30 pm; but am I right?
As you can imagine, coming from Gosport in Hampshire (strings of green carriages at Portsmouth Harbour - no offence SR fans), Grantham with it's depot and A4's running through was incredible. I had no awareness of Beeching etc; I just remember the sounds, smells and atmosphere of the place. Oh to go back with a camera, knowing what I do now...
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by StevieG »

1H was 2E wrote: " Just a word about loco diagrams.
Certainly in the 70's and 80's, there was the fashion for very long 'cyclic' diagrams; at the end of each diagram the number of the diagram the loco worked the next day would be shown. Following these through, it seemed to be many days before the loco got back to the first diagram again, (sometimes it never seemed to...) and of course any cycle of more than 5 days would hit SO and SuO conditions. However, on my occasional visits to controls in the 70's and 80's I noticed that power controllers spent a great deal of time manipulating locos between diagrams, for a number of good reasons*, such that it seemed unlikely that any loco stayed on the progression for very long. .... "
" .... *examples: freight train cape or pine traffic, balanced in both directions; freight special required; loco needs fuel/water; non- terminal defect that means it has to work to DMD; shortage "
Just to continue from '1H was 2E's comments :
[ WARNING : The following is firmly diesel-age stuff, and may bear no similarity to steam age practices ] : Being of rather similar age to 'ejgray52', my time as one of those manning the power control desk at an ER Divisional Control Office, which shall remain nameless (but for the purposes of discussion, we shall call King's Cross) was post-steam days by at least 10 years.

I would opine that diesel locos staying in a cyclic diagram overnight (or often, even between trips) could be the exception rather than the rule.
Local (e.g. within, or staying local to, a division) diagrams may have been less prone to re-arrangement, but swapping could still occur for several reasons, including locos being subject to being limited (as far as reasonably practical) to hours worked between scheduled maintenance#.

# - [from an 'A Exam' (basic check-up, lubricant and coolant levels, brake blocks' condition, re-fuel, etc. : Sorry, I was no expert), through the other 'letters', to an 'E Exam', (which I think was almost a complete dismantle/re-assemble/renew parts as necessary; probably at Donc.Works).]

The longer distance (inter-divisional/regional trips) loco allocations tended to be done one by one all the time.

And in both types of diagram, selection for individual jobs could be affected by en-route into-division allocations by other 'Controls', en-route failures or defects, whether locos in service had only certain equipment fitted, or equipment defects, that did not affect working some types or length of trip but no good for others (e.g. type of train heating provision absent or not working, the required braking system inoperative, having been technically declared fit to continue for only a limited further mileage before repair), plus having adequate fuel if not replenished, the available footplate crew for the next-working needing to have been 'passed out' for class of loco in question, the usual aim that a loco shall be back at its home shed by the end of the diagram or day - ( I expect that this little lot does not equate to an exhaustive list ! ]

I venture that steam loco/train allocation might have been influenced by, amongst other things, any known factors affecting en-route coal and water levels and facilities (including, for long-distance/few-stops-ers, working water scoops and full troughs).

Err .... That's probably more than enough herein about non-steam, non-Grantham (Gran. was in DR Div. by 'my time') matters.
BZOH

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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by giner »

Iron Duke wrote:Sorting through my clippings box I came across this interesting picture.
Can anyone confirm if this is Grantham and if so the approx date?

ID
Isn't this the same location (Heaton or York) that's under discussion here, with photos of Velocity and City of York? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9343&start=165
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 61070 »

ejgray52 wrote:All fascinating stuff - thank you guys! Casting my mind back to when I was but a lad (10 in 1963), I remember one of the highlights of my annual visit to my grandparents in Grantham were a couple of sessions with my uncle at the station. One of them to see the down 'Aberdonian'. Through the mists of time I remember it being Deltic hauled and arriving at 9:30 pm; but am I right?
As you can imagine, coming from Gosport in Hampshire (strings of green carriages at Portsmouth Harbour - no offence SR fans), Grantham with it's depot and A4's running through was incredible. I had no awareness of Beeching etc; I just remember the sounds, smells and atmosphere of the place. Oh to go back with a camera, knowing what I do now...
Glad you've enjoyed the thread, and thanks sharing your memories of Grantham. I don't know about the timing of The Aberdonian but I expect someone will.
Yes, sometimes we hark back to the places we once knew. 'Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end.' as the song goes. But you guys on the SR had main line steam to enjoy until July 1967. I remember making trips by coach to sheds at Bournemouth, Eastleigh, Weymouth, Salisbury, Guildford and the like. At the time it felt like travelling to the ends of the earth.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 60129 GUY MANNERING »

ejgray52 wrote:All fascinating stuff - thank you guys! Casting my mind back to when I was but a lad (10 in 1963), I remember one of the highlights of my annual visit to my grandparents in Grantham were a couple of sessions with my uncle at the station. One of them to see the down 'Aberdonian'. Through the mists of time I remember it being Deltic hauled and arriving at 9:30 pm; but am I right?
As you can imagine, coming from Gosport in Hampshire (strings of green carriages at Portsmouth Harbour - no offence SR fans), Grantham with it's depot and A4's running through was incredible. I had no awareness of Beeching etc; I just remember the sounds, smells and atmosphere of the place. Oh to go back with a camera, knowing what I do now...
That would be correct as the down "Aberdonian" left Kings Cross at 7.30 pm (19.30) in old money and it was still a two hour journey at that time (1963) so 9.30 is about right. I think she went from Platform 10 at the Cross as I seem to recall walking down the platform quite regularly in the early Sixties to see what motive power was being used.

Regards,Derek.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by DaveF »

1H was 2E wrote:Now there's something I don't understand. Please don't think I'm trying to activate a "West Coast was better than East Coast" argument BUT why did the Northbound Aberdonian have a loco change at Grantham, with the second engine working from Grantham to Aberdeen but the first only working KX to Grantham?

As the loco on the Grantham-KX-Grantham legs was a Grantham one presumably on arrival there it had to go for "Disposal" - that's assuming it just had a quick rakeover at KX and went straight back . The fireman would have therefore to arrive at Grantham with a low, even fire, boiler full and plenty of steam. Would this not be difficult to achieve with the hill from Peterboro'? I know that a KX engine would have to be in this state on arrival at KX, but easy running for the last few miles seems more acceptable at the end of a journey rather than only a little bit into it.
I believe that one of the reasons for this was the difficulty in obtaining labour in London wheras Grantham could obtain the required number of shed staff. Hence, at that time it was easier to maintain and clean locos at Grantham then in London.

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