Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

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soulmansteve
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Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by soulmansteve » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:12 pm

It never ceases to amaze me what turns up after 90 years 'missing'! Here's an absolutely stunning image captured on a glass plate negative by a talented but sadly unknown photographer. The locomotive is the GCR war memorial locomotive 'Valour' (GCR 9P / LNER B3). It's still in full GCR livery and with its original number - GCR 1165, so this is very early LNER days, there is no foilage on the trees, so this may help with an accurate date. A real bonus is the fact that the 'lost' GN box at Stratford Brook is also seen. It appears that the box is already closed and signals out of use.
Attachments
230000 Stratford Brook Box.jpg

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StevieG
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by StevieG » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:05 am

Brilliant indeed!
A close look at the top of the signal dolls reveals that, for the higher of the removed somersault arms at least, the backlight 'blinder' may not be opaque, so may have been of the purple glassed variety.
BZOH

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Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:36 pm

Yes a good photograph indeed and looks to me like the photograph has either been taken at sunrise or sunset?.

Also where exactly is Stratford Brook i don't believe i've ever heard of the place?.
Last edited by Mickey on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

60129 GUY MANNERING
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by 60129 GUY MANNERING » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:00 pm

I have a mileage for Stratford Brook Box - 43m 03¾ch from Kings Cross on the down side, but other than knowing that it was open in 1912 and closed by 1934, there's not much more I can add.
Regards, Derek.

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:14 pm

60129 GUY MANNERING wrote:I have a mileage for Stratford Brook Box - 43m 03¾ch from Kings Cross on the down side, but other than knowing that it was open in 1912 and closed by 1934, there's not much more I can add.
Regards, Derek.
The 44 mile post is at SANDY station so the box would have been between Biggleswade north and Sandy south s/boxes i assume?.

The box closed in 1934 thats why i never heard of it?. Plus i never went north of Hitchin much even in the early 1970s so there was no trace of Stratford Brook by then although having said that i must admit the background with the train coming off the curve did look vaguely like the southern approach to Sandy to me.

Thanks Derek

Also any photographs out there of both the 20th Mile Up & 20th Mile Down s/boxes also Digswell s/box?.

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strang steel
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by strang steel » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:40 am

If the box is on the down side, then the train would be on the down fast and the line runs in a northwesterly direction at that point. This seems to fit with the sunlight coming from the southwest(-ish), and the small cumulus clouds that are unlikely to be a feature of an early morning shot.

The shadows appear to be quite lengthy, suggesting the angle of the sun was quite low and I would suggest late March/early April for the time of year given the previously mentioned bare trees (Easter perhaps?). If there was a northbound Pullman train booked to pass Sandy in the late afternoon/early evening during the late 1920s, maybe that would add some more evidence.

However, don't take my opinion as gospel. If I have missed something obvious, please let us know.
John

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:36 pm

So the s/box closed in 1934 so it looks like the photograph was probably taken shortly after the box closed although the nameboard is still on the box and the signal wires are still seen near the ground yet the signal arms have been abolished and the box windows appear to be strangely boarded up?.

A pure guess from me is that the train is the late afternoon Yorkshire Pullman service or could it be going to Nottingham?.

35 years later in B.R. days in the late 1960s & early 1970s there was a late afternoon Yorkshire Pullman train from Kings Cross to Leeds i recall that use to depart 'the Cross' around 5:pm.

john coffin
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by john coffin » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:48 pm

I am interested in the carriages, they seem way to early to be still on a fast passenger train being pulled by a 4-6-0.
In particular the first npc after the tender, is very narrow with a central ducket, and one wonders whether or not it is on
a pair of bogies?

The carriages seem to be flat sided, and I do not remember the Pullmans of that time being so flat.
Shame people put their contrived copyright signs over such an important part of the picture. He plainly didn't take the photo!
Paul

soulmansteve
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by soulmansteve » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:10 pm

Paul - Your closing remark is a bit OTT. I don't put 'contrived' copyright images on my archive. I put them on because they have a habit of being used without authority. If that upsets you, please remember that purchasing and restoring such images is time-consuming and costly. Furthermore - I could keep them to myself if I wasn't interested in them being seen! Anyone can request a high resolution image for personal use from my archive (without the watermark) at a modest cost - so if you'd like one - just ask!

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:14 pm

john coffin wrote:The carriages seem to be flat sided, and I do not remember the Pullmans of that time being so flat.
Interesting Paul with regards to the flat sided Pullmans. I am not to well up on carriages but watching early film footage of mainly Pullman coaches on the Southern Railway during the 1930s i believe there Pullmans of that era were also flat sided as well.

It always makes me smile by the way with regards to any film footage shot during the 1930s on the Southern Railway because it appears virtually every train running on there railways at that time always seemed to have at least one Pullman car sometimes two in the trains formation no matter even if the train is a semi-fast passenger from Victoria to Brighton (50 miles).

soulmansteve
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by soulmansteve » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:29 pm

The photo can almost certainly be narrowed down to early 1924 because 'Valour' received its LNER number in January 1925. It is an 'evening' train, the photographer has used the signal box to hide the low evening sun and capture the backlit exhaust most effectively. Brian Stephenson (of RAS) has suggested the photographer may be Robert Brookman, The vendor of the glass negative said there were no clues unfortunately. I've attached an enlarged version to show the rolling stock more effectively.
Attachments
1165.jpg

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:37 pm

soulmansteve wrote:The photo can almost certainly be narrowed down to early 1924...
Interesting Steve, so if the date of the photograph is early 1924 and the s/box was opened in 1912 and closed in 1934 how come the box appears to be closed but strangely still open??. Sorry for the contradiction folks.

Yes the photograph does look more 1920s rather then 1930s to be honest. :wink:

john coffin
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by john coffin » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:53 pm

Steve. sorry if you think my comments were OTT, but it is my personal view. I am glad you have chosen to buy and preserve this photo, it is very useful, and maybe now we can consider that in the second view, you have moved the copyright note to a more sensible position, and at that point I am less concerned.

As someone who designs models, I understand there are ruthless people out there who will steal ones designs or artefacts with apparent impunity, and I do not condone that either. I am keen to get as much data into the public domain as possible, and as such pass on my comments. What I found wrong with the first photo was how the copyright stuff destroyed the view of the train too. I do understand why you did and do it, but as I say, the second one is much better, in that allows people to do initial research, and still shows it is one of yours.

As a pre- Gresley carriage man, it is in these photos that I often find really useful details and having to look around the copyright makes it more difficult to ask the correct questions. Mind you I complain about some of the stands taken by York re
their idea of copyright.

Micky, I am still not convinced it is a pullman train, although I agree they were on the strangest trains! I am still trawling my various books to see if I can find a similar train and decide whether or not. My feeling is that even then, the upper panels would have been lighter in colour than in the photo. I realise it is difficult in these older photos which are 3/4 front as it were, but the nuances should be easier to see. It is of course interesting to wonder whether the photographer was photographing the signal box, or the engine?

Steve, I am of course ready to discuss this privately should you wish, mind you if you have more GNR early carriage photos, then I might even buy some!!!!! Thing is when you are trying to collect a range, it gets pretty expensive :mrgreen:

Paul

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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by drmditch » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:56 pm

Since the GCR (and for that matter the NER) built some flat sided coaches, couldn't these be some of them. How long did the 'Barnums' last?

soulmansteve
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by soulmansteve » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:52 pm

Thanks to all who are adding information to this thread I'm really enjoying seeing your thoughts. I am not any kind of authority on rolling stock, but 'flat-sided' Pullman stock appears in several images from the pre-grouping era. The LB&SCR certainly had them in it's fleet for the 'Belle' and I have several lovely photos in my archive of 'H1', 'B4' and 'I3' - hauled Pullman trains taken at Stoat's Nest near Croydon circa 1910, see attached example. For anyone interested in images from my archive, mostly from original negatives, I can be contacted offline at - soulmansteve@me.com
I'll always try to help if possible.
Regards - Steve
Attachments
100000 Stoat's Nest LB&SCR 40(c).jpg

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