Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

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soulmansteve
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by soulmansteve » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:07 am

I've just found details on the 'net, that one Francis P. Cockshott, GNR Superintendent of the line issued a notice on 26th November 1892 that the GNR intended to build Stratford Brook box. As to its actual date of construction...?

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R. pike
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by R. pike » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:39 am

A truly super photo. We see Stratford Brook close up for the first time. More question than answers though. Do i see only ten linewires leading to the box? That will give us absolute block for the fasts, a block bell for the goods and a telephone?

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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by john coffin » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:01 am

As I thought, the Pullman UK co was originally based in Brighton, and the LBSC ran the first train in the new Pullman Livery of Umber and Cream in 1905/6. Metro Cammell and Birmingham CRW built carriages too.
Sadly none of the presently preserved Pullmans appear to be very early, and I do not believe there is a
Clerestory one anywhere. But of interest is that the carriages in the train seem to be flattish rooved vehicles. The Barnums I thought had vertical panels below the waist line, but I have of course never seen a real one!!!!!! They were of course named after the Barnum and Bailey Circus which came to Britain about the time they were built, and my dim memory suggests that they were originally built to take the circus around on the MSL/GCR, does anyone know?

Strangely after the second war, and nationalisation Pullman became in 1954 part of the owners of British Railways, the BTC. The demise seems to have been the dichotomy between a "private" company being owned by a nationalised one, and the unions were the reason the famous Blue Pullmans did not last as long as they had hoped. As a Kings Cross man, it was those in the 60's that made me turn left out of the Met tube instead of right for a bit of trainspotting :oops:

Paul

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:50 am

All in all a very good but bit of a strange photograph of a ex-G.C.R. loco on the former Great Northern Railways main line passing a 'long lost' s/box that appears to have closed but also looks like it's still open???.

Still pity it wasn't an ex-G.N.R. Ivatt Atlantic on the front BUT that just goes to show no matter how good and rare a photograph is there's always somebody who's gotta have a moan that something isn't right. :wink:

Steve if you can 'dig up' any old photographs of other 'long lost' G.N.R. s/boxes especially-

1.Twentieth Mile DOWN (closed in the 1920s)
2.Twentieth Mile UP (closed in the 1920s)
3.Digswell (closed in the 1920s)

It would be much appreciated.

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strang steel
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by strang steel » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:47 am

In the original photo, the first two of the possible "Pullman" coaches appear to be twelve wheelers - if that is any help.

I wonder if trying to look for colour changes on a carriage side which is facing directly towards the low sun, is probably not going to yield any clues? I have seen photographs of BR blue/grey carriage sides which look all silver in similar light conditions.

Might the train have Sheffield as the destination? That could possibly explain the locomotive, or it might be some form of special. I suppose that it does not necessarily have to be early in the year. It could be November, and a return from the Armistice Day parade at the Cenotaph; which would also explain the loco.
John

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:06 am

soulmansteve wrote:I've just found details on the 'net, that one Francis P. Cockshott, GNR Superintendent of the line issued a notice on 26th November 1892 that the GNR intended to build Stratford Brook box. As to its actual date of construction...?
Surprising what you can find on the web??.

It took the G.N.R. 20 years to get around to building the box which apparently opened in 1912.

The mileage between Biggleswade & Sandy is apparently 3 miles (personally i thought i was shorter then 3 nearer 2 miles?) obviously the company felt the need for an extra block section between Biggleswade north & Sandy south s/boxes at that time?.

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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by john coffin » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:09 pm

I think the fact that there is a GCR 4-6-0 pulling a "fast" train down the GNR main line so near to London suggests that this is a quite early post Grouping photo when the LNER were testing various locos of the group on unusual (for them) workings in unusual places. I have certainly seen in a book, a picture of a GCR 4-6-0 on a Pullman Train on the approach to KX. Got a feeling that that was the Harrogate Pullman, so far not found the photo again though :roll:

Whilst I agree that it is silly to try and second guess the livery of a B/W photo of such a time and in such conditions, it is also true that the standard Pullman colours would have stood out against wood finish even though.

Because people who took the photos rarely connected their notes with the photos they took it is only by continually asking that we can get any nearer to a potential answer.

Pau
looking at Steve's picture of the LBSCR train, it is quite clear that the colour differentiations are visible, but also sadly, I am not sure they are "flat sided", there is a slight tumblehone I think. I do however think the two photos are similar in time scale give or take 5 years.
l

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:26 pm

john coffin wrote:I think the fact that there is a GCR 4-6-0 pulling a "fast" train down the GNR main line so near to London suggests that this is a quite early post Grouping photo when the LNER were testing various locos of the group on unusual (for them) workings in unusual places. I have certainly seen in a book, a picture of a GCR 4-6-0 on a Pullman Train on the approach to KX. Got a feeling that that was the Harrogate Pullman, so far not found the photo again though :roll:
From memory in the book the L.N.E.R. Album there is a b/w photograph of a (ex-G.C.R. Robinson 9P) L.N.E.R B3 4-6-0 at the head of a down express made up of Pullmans taken at Belle Isle sometime around the mid-1920s maybe it is the same loco?.

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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by jwealleans » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:47 pm

I think you remember correctly, Micky. I've just been looking at Steve Banks' book and he shows what looks to me like the same set behind a C1. He says it's the Harrogate Pullman and the reason for the BG at each end was a shortage of Pullman brake ends.

I recall reading somewhere that someone ex-GC was appointed to the KX or southern ECML area early in LNER days and he instigated the transfer of some ex-GC locos down there. There are a few pictures of different Robinson 4-6-0s on these workings.

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:04 pm

jwealleans wrote:I think you remember correctly, Micky. I've just been looking at Steve Banks' book and he shows what looks to me like the same set behind a C1. He says it's the Harrogate Pullman and the reason for the BG at each end was a shortage of Pullman brake ends.
Maybe someone will have this photograph or have the (first) L.N.E.R. Album and can post this photograph of a ex G.C.R. 4-6-0 hauling a down express made up of Pullmans in Belle Isle in 1925?.

Talking about G.N.R. C1s LARGE BOILERED Atlantics Mr.Wealleans there's a excellent photograph possibly in the same L.N.E.R. Album book of no.4444 on the down fast line at Copenhagen Junction (Belle Isle) storming the grade!!!.

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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by jwealleans » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:53 pm

It's probably copyright, Micky. Funnily enough I was looking at another pic of 4444 yesterday. Not quite a volocanic display of steam and smoke, but spectacular in its' own right.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N ... 551861529/

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:20 pm

jwealleans wrote:It's probably copyright, Micky. Funnily enough I was looking at another pic of 4444 yesterday. Not quite a volocanic display of steam and smoke, but spectacular in its' own right.
Your probably correct Mr.Wealleans about copyright but i have posted one photograph before from a book on this forum (Diesels out of Kings Cross published by Ian Allan in 1981) but gave the photograph a full photographers credit plus the book publisher a credit as well. Still i am not sure if i was totally correct in posting it all the same?. :?

Getting back to the photograph in question it's an excellent photograph even if it does show a ex-G.C.R. 4-6-0 loco and not a ex-G.N.R. 4-4-2 LARGE BOILERED Atlantic. :wink:

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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by giner » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:58 pm

jwealleans wrote:It's probably copyright, Micky. Funnily enough I was looking at another pic of 4444 yesterday. Not quite a volocanic display of steam and smoke, but spectacular in its' own right.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N ... 551861529/
Mr. Walleans, you have made my day! I'd never seen that photo before and it took me right back to that very location where I spent a huge chunk of my boyhood. Count me as gobsmacked.

Micky, if you haven't had a visit from the 'heavies' by now, I'd say you're safe about posting a photo from a book. :D

Mickey

Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Mickey » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:08 pm

giner wrote:
jwealleans wrote:It's probably copyright, Micky. Funnily enough I was looking at another pic of 4444 yesterday. Not quite a volocanic display of steam and smoke, but spectacular in its' own right.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N ... 551861529/
Mr. Walleans, you have made my day! I'd never seen that photo before and it took me right back to that very location where I spent a huge chunk of my boyhood. Count me as gobsmacked.

Micky, if you haven't had a visit from the 'heavies' by now, I'd say you're safe about posting a photo from a book. :D
I'll sleep easy then giner. :wink:

As for the photograph of no.4444 obviously on LANGLEY TROUGHS i'd say (before reading the bottom of the photograph).

Your never to far away from Stevenage giner. :wink:

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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by john coffin » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:47 pm

Looking for more sources if info, I found one book we all tend to forget(well actually two) WillieYeadon's Named Trains of the LNER. Vol 1 has a decent piece about the Harrogate Pullman, and certainly, I can see no flat sided pullmans, but more importantly no 12 wheelers and an 8 wheeled brake van. I think the Pullmans had a very shallow tumblehone.

The Harrogate Pullman was first started on 9th July 1923 being pulled by C1's and was non stop from KX to Leeds Central. It was then reversed and run forward by an NER Atlantic.

Willie mentions that in later 1923 W.G.P. Maclure was appointed Loco Running Superintendent for the Southern Area and reminds us that he had been the Great Central Southern Super during the whole of the GC's 25 years in London.
So, in July 1923 3 B3's including Valour, were moved from Gorton to KX still in GC livery. By August 1924 all 6 were in London, but it seems they were not as good as Mr Maclure had hoped and by 1927 had all gone back to the Manchester area.

By 1935 it seems that some at least of the Pullmans might have been straight sided, but without end on shots difficult to know for sure.

What is stunning in all the photos, albeit from wider angles the colour of the Pullman livery is plainly visible.

Nice to see a C1 in full steam on a train. :lol:

Paul

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