Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

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soulmansteve
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by soulmansteve » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:26 pm

Whilst we're on the subject, here are some more lovely early Pullman pictures attached for all you rolling stock afficionados. The Brighton H1s look even more 'GN' without names. All these fine images were taken in the 1905 to 1910 era, either at Stoat's Nest, near Croydon or Tooting Common. The photographer was the delightfully named Wentworth S. Gray
Attachments
Stoat's Nest 22.jpg
Stoat's Nest 37.jpg
Tooting Common 38.jpg
UNID B4.jpg

soulmansteve
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by soulmansteve » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:54 am

Ever-helpful, Brian Stephenson of Rail Archive Stephenson has contacted me with the following:- "Regarding the shot of Valour - attached are three shots of the 11.15am Harrogate Pullman taken by F.R. Hebron in 1924/25 before the train became the Edinburgh Pullman and eventually the 'Queen of Scots'. The B3s were drafted in to work the service from the start as Pacifics were not then allowed between Doncaster and Leeds. The Ivatt Atlantics were perfectly good for this working and I have an almost identical shot of one as to that of Valour attached but the new Southern Area Running Superintendent, W.G.P. Maclure, came from the GC and wanted to show off that company's best or so he thought. They later discovered the Directors could make a much better economic job of running the Pullmans until the Pacifics were allowed to Leeds. There were two sets of carriages for the train as the up train arrived at Kings Cross at 3.15pm. In those days the wealthy passengers travelling to Harrogate to take the waters took a lot of baggage with them hence the full brakes but 12 wheel Pullman brakes soon appeared in the formation after the Sheffield Pullman was withdrawn.
As to the time, looking at Google Earth you can see as someone says the line turns NW at the point where Stratford Brook is and you can see where I think the box was with an under bridge for the stream. You can see the girders for it in your photo but obviously they have been changed since then. My shot of 1165 is coming round the bend from New Barnet and is heading due north. The time would be about 11.35am, your shot taken possibly just around midday with the train heading NW would I suggest have the sun almost exactly the opposite to mine just as it is in the photo. As to the fact the box was still supposed to be open I cannot comment on? And yes they are 12-wheel Pullman cars without a doubt".
My thanks go to Brian for the above and the three classic Frank Hebron images from RAS - Steve
Attachments
RAS-GCR B3 1164c FRH #1714.jpg
RAS-GCR B3 1165 FRH #1716.jpg
RAS-GCR B3 6168 FRH #1715.jpg

john coffin
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by john coffin » Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:45 am

Whilst I am sure that Brian Stephenson knows a great deal, I am still certain that the front vehicle in the original photo is
totally unlike any of the other ones pictured, and that leads me to still doubt whether the others are pullmans.

The details just look wrong to me. All of the early Willie Yeadon photos show a definite change of colour above the waist
of the carriages themselves. Even the two photos showing C1's with Pullman carriages show a change of colour and different
details of the carriage design. Neither of them have vans at the front and rear.

The more we ask the more we learn
Paul

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strang steel
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by strang steel » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:48 am

john coffin wrote:Whilst I am sure that Brian Stephenson knows a great deal, I am still certain that the front vehicle in the original photo is
totally unlike any of the other ones pictured, and that leads me to still doubt whether the others are pullmans.


Paul
But the front vehicle in the original photo does look very similar to the rear vehicle in the middle photo of the Brian Stephenson trio.

Look at that middle photo from the rear forwards, and compare it with the original photo looking in the opposite direction, from front to rear. There is a short wheelbase full brake with a guards ducket, followed by four carriages where the lower bodysides are at the same height above the rails, but the fifth one is raised slightly above that level.

It must be that the full brake was removed/replaced by one of a different design from time to time, but to me the formation in the middle Stephenson photo looks to be the same as that in the original, but on this occasion it is the opposite way around.

I hope this makes sense, as I am beginning to confuse myself now.
John

john coffin
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by john coffin » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:52 am

We are all driving ourselves batty in trying to determine something about 90 years old which was not annotated properly. It reminds us again how useful a couple of notes on a photo are, and how trying to keep the notes with same is really useful.

Personally I would have anyway expected the first van in the original photo to be a Howlden 45ft bogie van, but the roof looks wrong for such. Maybe it is a NER van, since the train if a Harrogate Pullman, would have used NER stock later in its journey.

What this photo also highlights is how difficult it is to identify all the things in photos from such a distance.
In my work with Malcolm Crawley on his tender book, we had hoped to include some tender photos, but the difficulty of identifying tenders on locos is compounded by the foreshortening.

The whole discussion has though been instructive and interesting.

Paul

madgewildfire60135
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by madgewildfire60135 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:25 pm

Amazing images really enjoyed viewing them. One from my collection of glass plate negatives which shows ex GC B3 Class No 6167 'Lloyd George' on the up working of the Harrogate Pullman seen here near Marshmoor in 1925. If you can add or correct anything to this glass plate then I would love to hear from you many thanks.

Simon
Attachments
ex GC B3 Class No 6167 'Lloyd George' at Marshmoor 1925.jpg

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kimballthurlow
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by kimballthurlow » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:26 am

Thank you all, I too enjoyed the photos in this long lost post.
The original topic theme photo "at Stratford Brook" got me to comparing many images I have stored on my computer.
Six wheeled bogies, numbers of windows, lighter colours above the waist and on the head-line, cut-away roof-line at the doors all combine to show they were Pullmans.
The second vehicle in the Pullman line-up has the oval window panel toward the trailing end.

That also got me to thinking about the terrific quality of camera work and camera technics in those days.
Remarkably fast shutter speeds. And I have never studied the chemistry of glass plate, but it cannot have many of the drawbacks of small format film.
regards
Kimball

Bill Bedford
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Bill Bedford » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:26 am

john coffin wrote:Micky, I am still not convinced it is a pullman train, although I agree they were on the strangest trains! I am still trawling my various books to see if I can find a similar train and decide whether or not.
Since these carriages have six wheeled bogies, it is difficult to suggest they are anything other than Pullmans. The train is topped and tailed by 45' luggage vans.

9001 St Paddy
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by 9001 St Paddy » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:44 am

Bill Bedford wrote:
john coffin wrote:Micky, I am still not convinced it is a pullman train, although I agree they were on the strangest trains! I am still trawling my various books to see if I can find a similar train and decide whether or not.
Since these carriages have six wheeled bogies, it is difficult to suggest they are anything other than Pullmans. The train is topped and tailed by 45' luggage vans.
The train looks like a rake of Pullmans with said luggage vans at both ends to me as well Bill.

FINSBURY PARK [5] formerly Micky and Hatfield No3 box posts also a onetime 'tele lad' at Welwyn Garden City box. :wink:

Tim Watson
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Tim Watson » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:39 am

soulmansteve wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:12 pm
It never ceases to amaze me what turns up after 90 years 'missing'! Here's an absolutely stunning image captured on a glass plate negative by a talented but sadly unknown photographer. The locomotive is the GCR war memorial locomotive 'Valour' (GCR 9P / LNER B3). It's still in full GCR livery and with its original number - GCR 1165, so this is very early LNER days, there is no foilage on the trees, so this may help with an accurate date. A real bonus is the fact that the 'lost' GN box at Stratford Brook is also seen. It appears that the box is already closed and signals out of use.
Apologies fir resurrecting an old thread, but on my hunt for photos of Valour, this is probably my favourite (the original post in this thread). Can anyone suggest how I can get a good resolution clean copy?

Thanks
Tim

Danby Wiske
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by Danby Wiske » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:23 pm


upney sidings
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Re: Amazing 'new' image - long-closed GN box.

Post by upney sidings » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:23 pm

Quoting from The LNER Encyclopedia:
"After Grouping in 1923, a home for the B3s was found on the GN (Great Northern) Section. They were allocated to the Copley Hill and Kings Cross sheds and operated a newly introduced Pullman service between Kings Cross and Leeds."
Mike M.
My collection of archive images: http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/

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