Computer Coloured Monochrome

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Darwin4975
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by Darwin4975 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:58 am

The latest set of images received from the Transport Treasury include this fascinating study of Merlin at Haymarket. She is carrying the short lived experimental 'purple' livery which I believe more closely resembled a dark ultramarine with a hint of violet.

The lining is stated by Yeadon and others to be cream, red and grey. Close inspection of this negative shows some interesting detail. The outside cylinder covers appear to have lining on each side. I can find no reference to this anywhere. The colour would seem to be red rather than grey and definitely not cream. The lining on the running board and ahead of the cylinders looks as if it is cream grey and red in that order.

The boiler bands seem to be grey with a thin red line on either side.

Does anyone know anything about the apparent lining on the cylinder covers?
Attachments
60027 in exp livery.jpg
detail 1.jpg
detail 2.jpg


Woodcock29
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by Woodcock29 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:59 pm

Hi Darwin4975

Could you please post a full copy of the B4 No 6095 after the amendments you made such as tender coping plate and buffers. I might print one and frame it for my Railway Room!

Many thanks in advance.

Woodcock29

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strang steel
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by strang steel » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:13 am

I have that slide -
60028on shed.jpg
I think it might be a Colour-Rail one (in which case Richard will probably remove it), but it appears not to have any lining on the cylinder covers.

Edited: to add that on blowing my scan up to high magnification, the curved lining at the front immediately behind the buffers appears to be cream, loco body colour, red. There does not seem any difference between the middle lining colour and the colour either side of the lining - at least to me. I certainly would say it is not grey.
John

Darwin4975
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by Darwin4975 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:46 pm

The colour transparency of 60028 in experimental livery is very well known and probably the best existing of one of these locomotives, but there is a limit to the amount of detail it can show. The same picture appears in 'The Big Four in Colour' along with an lengthy caption which states that the lining was cream, red and grey based onLNWR practice. (Riddles influence?) These lining colours are also given by Yeadon et al in Part 2A of the 'green bible'.

This negative of 60027 at Haymarket is of very high quality and the lines shown on the cylinder casing were undoubtedly there. They will also have been present on 60028 but don't show up on the slide because the engine was not close enough and the image was too small (35mm most likely). It surprises me that there is no mention of these lines by any of the authorities in their published works.

Knowing that these lines are present, they must have had a colour. I think probably red. I'm currently working on this picture and early results are looking as the attached. The blue is described in the caption mentioned above as being royal blue. The blue you see here was obtained by digitally sampling the darkest portion of the image of 60028. I think it is close to what it would have been.

I can't say I particularly like this experimental livery. A good job they moved on to something better. I will post this completed picture in due course.
Attachments
60027 f8f1a3 .jpg

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strang steel
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by strang steel » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:59 pm

I have blown up the relevant section on the 60028 photo, but still cannot see any evidence of vertical lining.

(Click on the photo and it will zoom in further).

There are double lines of rivets, but no bright colours as far as I can make out.



60028on shed.jpg

The curved lining behind the buffers is also shown, so that anyone interested may try and find evidence of grey paint. I must admit that the narrowness of the strip may make for an optical illusion.
John

Darwin4975
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by Darwin4975 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:53 pm

Thanks John, that is very interesting. I agree, there is no evidence of lining on the cylinder covers of 60028, which begs the question of why one engine should have and another not? Presumably these repaints were all carried out at Doncaster so the paint shop staff should have been aware of any differences. Were there subtle variations between the four A4s concerned that were not documented at the time? Very intriguing. I will try to source negatives of the other two 'purple' A4s (Kingfisher & Woodcock) for more evidence.

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strang steel
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by strang steel » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:23 am

Yes, it is very interesting. I have never seen that style of vertical lining on cylinder covers before.

I must have a rummage through my photo album book collection, and see if anything turns up.
John

Darwin4975
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by Darwin4975 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:58 pm

An interesting discovery regarding Merlin's cylinder lining:

On p 89 of the Yeadon Register Vol 1 there is a picture of No 60075 St Frusquin in the experimental blue and showing lining similar to that of Merlin on the cylinder covers. Intriguingly, it turns out that 60075 and 60027 were both in the Doncaster paint shop concurrently in late May 1948. The A3 was released to traffic on 28th May and the A4 a few days later on 2nd June. It seems a safe bet to me that the same person or team of people were responsible for the painting activities on both locomotives. We will never know their exact instructions. It's possible that they were told to line the A3 and took it on themselves to treat the A4 similarly. They could also have been told to line them both of course. (By whom?)
Yeadon describes the A3's cylinder covers as being lined in red and cream. Looking at the photograph on p.89 it's impossible to confirm this though the actual lining can certainly be seen. In the case of Merlin, cream can definitely be ruled out as it would appear much lighter on the original black & white image. I'm quite sure that for the A4 the lines were the same colour, and almost certainly red rather than cream.

Here is the finished outcome for Merlin in the experimental livery at Haymarket shed. The shade of blue seen here was sampled directly from the well-known image of 60028 in the same experimental livery.

I am working on another of the same locomotive in action on an Edinburgh - Glasgow express, passing the same shed, -yet another Transport Treasury gem.
Attachments
60027 64B 3a f8f1b3.jpg

JASd17
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by JASd17 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:47 am

There is certainly one picture of an A3 at Newcastle with the lining double red on the cylinders in this livery.

I agree that 60027 looks to have the same lining. Was it the only A4 with this livery variation?

The double red lining on the 'boiler bands' did NOT have grey in between, as suggested earlier in this thread, '3-20pm, 19-10-14'.

John

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52D
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by 52D » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:10 pm

JASd17 wrote:There is certainly one picture of an A3 at Newcastle with the lining double red on the cylinders in this livery.

I agree that 60027 looks to have the same lining. Was it the only A4 with this livery variation?

The double red lining on the 'boiler bands' did NOT have grey in between, as suggested earlier in this thread, '3-20pm, 19-10-14'.

John
John are you thinking of the pic of TRIGO?
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

Darwin4975
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by Darwin4975 » Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:15 pm

Here is the view of Trigo at Newcastle. There appears to be a cream line at the extreme left and right edges of the cylinder casing (best seen on the left side), as well as the double red lines left and right as seen on 60027.
Interesting to see that the black buffer shanks were still being retained in the early BR period.

Time for a change from experimental liveries.....
Attachments
img 60084 Newcastle.jpg
img222.jpg

JASd17
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by JASd17 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:35 pm

Yes 52D, I was thinking of the Trigo picture, which Darwin4975 has now posted.

As far as I am aware there was no cream lining on the cylinders, the lack of true colour rendition and dirt/rust on the cylinders has created the effect in the picture.

John

Darwin4975
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by Darwin4975 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:48 pm

Time for a change. Here is a restful scene from Leeds Neville Hill shed in the early 1950s from the camera of John Robertson and courtesy of the Transport Treasury.

The D20 4-4-0s were rendered extinct with the last three withdrawals in November 1957. (I remember seeing no 62381 in Darlington scrapyard at the time.) The end for No 62345 had come a year earlier in October 1956 after almost 57 years of service.

In the distance, a G5 potters about near the coaling stage. (If only one of either class had been retained!)
Attachments
62345 bw.jpg
62345 col 3b.jpg

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52D
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Re: Computer Coloured Monochrome

Post by 52D » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:14 pm

Well you've done it again D20 and G5 in the same pic and in colour.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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