restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

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mick b
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by mick b »

I am sorry re my earlier post re authetic condition.

I have now realised that the current Flying Scotsman could only be authentic if she returned to original A1 specification with Right hand drive which is the only time she pulled a Corridor tender in actual Railway company owned period. Personally I have no interst in Rail tout history on any Loco.
What she needs is a replica Streamlined Non Corridor tender or a GNR version for correct A3 condition to be built.
The NRM at that point could then start justifying some of the cost. At the current time she is a authentic for today and nothing else.

A great shame some of the money wasnt spent on new cylinders for Green Arrow. For whatever reason the NRM refuse to use anything other than a monobloc casting so that is original condition !! Total nonsense when Scotsman is such a compromise
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52D
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by 52D »

Well said Mick.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
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strang steel
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by strang steel »

With Green Arrow, I can see where the museum are coming from. In 50 years time when there are no people alive who remember BR steam, would it be acceptable to say "we have preserved this loco, but it bares only a passing resemblance to the one that was withdrawn from BR service and even less to the original class as built"?

After all, you would not preserve a Model T Ford car but fit it with a modern Ford Ka engine.

Given the choice, I would restore Flying Scotsman to early 1960s condition as much as possible, because that is how I remember seeing it in my youth, but I realise that this is only me being selfish.
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60800
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by 60800 »

I agree that the NRM has good reason to keep Green Arrow where she is, and I must admit that it's nice to be able to sit next to her and have a good 'ol look at her, both above ground and in the inspection pit. I think the NRM should have done the same with Scotsman. Both 4771 and 4472 have been worked to death in the past three and a half decades and both deserve a good long rest for maybe 20 years or so. Evening Star and Duchess of Hamilton need some time in the limelight again and now Green Arrow has been efficiently brushed aside for a while, 6229 is soon to be restored. I unfortunatley, can't see the same happening for 92220.
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mallardsp126
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by mallardsp126 »

Hi all I still think it would have been money well spent to get new frames/boiler etc thus giving 4472 another 30,40 maybe even 50 years more service allowing future generations to enjoy seeing her running at speed on a mainline which is what she was built for rather than what will probably hapen in 10 years time when NRM say not enough will be left if we do another rebuild.
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by 60800 »

Nothing 'original' of her left anyway, hasn't been for 45 years!
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jwealleans
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by jwealleans »

you would not preserve a Model T Ford car but fit it with a modern Ford Ka engine.
I don't think your metaphor at all applies - the equivalent would be putting a Sulzer in the tender. When the V2 monobloc castings wore out the LNER replaced them, either as original or as a 3 piece casting. Nothing prevents the museum from doing that but retaining the original components for replacement if deemed appropriate for display at a later date. If they choose not to do so because the money can be spent on other locos which have earned a turn at being in steam, I don't have a problem. If it's down to some abstruse theory about preserving originality then I have no time for it - none of these locos have been 'original' since the first time they went into works.
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strang steel
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by strang steel »

Maybe so, but that was not my point.

With Scotsman, its final condition was brought about by advancements in technology which improved the performance of the whole class.

Therefore, the justification for preserving it in "as withdrawn from BR service" condition is in my mind equal to or even greater than rebuilding it to represent an original A1, or any other stage in between.

With the V2s, the question of monobloc or separate cylinder castings was one of economics and not an improvement in performance. 4771 was not one of those locos affected, and so to replace the monobloc with the separate cylinders would be to do something to that particular locomotive which never actually took place in its BR life.

I just find it paradoxical that there seems to be a clamour for 60103 to be returned to as close as original condition as possible, but when people defend keeping 60800 as original as can be, the old chestnut about parts being interchangeable between locomotives at The Plant is used to try a justify its rebuilding into something it never was.

If I am still not making myself clear, lets just drift into fantasy land for a minute. One could argue that fitting Kylchap double chimney arrangements to all the V2s (had the diesel take-over not been quite so imminent) would have transformed the fleet almost to the level of the Pacifics, and they too would probably have gained German style smoke deflectors.

Now still within the what if..... category, imagine that one of the double chimneyed V2s (with smoke deflectors) had been preserved instead of 60800. Would there now be a majority of people lobbying the NRM to have it returned to its original as built condition, including monobloc cylinders?

Please try and resist the temptation to bite my head off, as I am really only arguing from a Devils Advocate position.
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by Bill Bedford »

I once knew an art college lecturer, who often expressed the opinion that buildings that were over 50 years old should all be knocked down and rebuilt. There are time when I find myself warming to his view of the world...............
jwealleans
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by jwealleans »

There are time when I find myself warming to his view of the world.
About now, when we could start to clear almost anything built during the 1960s?

Back to Green Arrow - we don't have a problem with renumbering and renaming preserved locos, so what's wrong with going a step further and applying a modification which happened not to have been made to that particular member of a class? If someone with more money than sense paid the NRM to make FS into 'Humorist' with all its' variations, I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem with not returning GA to steam at all, if the reason is 'it's too expensive' or 'we want to spend the money on something else this time round'. I don't have any time for the argument that we don't want to prejudice any mythical 'originality'. If they wanted to preserve that they should never have repainted it, or, arguably, even cleaned it.
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Blink Bonny
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by Blink Bonny »

Ay up!

Interesting points all. As regards modern engines in old cars, I'm afraid it happens. Why? Dunno. If you want a fast classic car, buy a fast classic such as an E-Type. Why buy a Morris 1000 then put a V8 in it? Plenty of people do and this causes as much controversy in the classic car world as FS does in "ours." There is still a serious debate about whether or not cars originally fitted with dynamos should have alternators installed!

As for 1960s onwards buildings, there are one or two that deserve preservation but only a few. The New Wark centre in Leicester springs to mind because it has shapely curves. Or Tricorn House in Brum for the same reason. Most? Yeeeuuuuuch!

As for GA. If lack of funds are the reason, fair do's. I can accept that, lolly is tight these days. But FS drives a coach and horses through the NRM's stated policy regarding authenticity.
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richard
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by richard »

Ellerman Lines isn't very authentic either - or have they removed all those flashy lights :-)


I think for once I actually agree with Peter Waterman in that the fuss over Flying Scotsman is out of proportion.
Ellerman Lines is not about preserving a Merchant navy class. Perhaps Flying Scotsman is more about being a poster child for the museum and to have an express passenger steam loco in running condition? It has a lot of things to do and technically, they are not all mutually compatible (eg. choice of colour and efficient running).


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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

I don't understand why people seem to think Flying Scotsman, when bought, wasn't as much of a business decision as it was about preserving a unique piece of our heritage - and yes, actually I think the NRM restoring the A3 boiler and various other components to the locomotive is a very good thing, and in some respects conservation.

Let's look at it this way. Yes, it is a poster child for the museum. Yes, it was also preserving a unique piece of our heritage, and yes, they have done some limited conservation work on the locomotive too.

It's not perfect, but it is getting there. It is an A3 Pacific through and through this time around, physically, if not in livery. 4472 will always be a hybrid because of the initial decision take by Alan Pegler to have a corridor tender restored to her. I don't think anyone would begrduge him that on the basis of the usefulness of the locomotive.

I find it interesting the hypocrital nature of the argument that 4472 should have the apple green with single chimney only, as if we were honest, it's no worse than having a BR green locomotive and tender combination which never happened.

Scotsman has been, and always shall be, a special case, because she has been a working locomotive, almost non stop since being built. She was never going to be "all original" and it's foolish to think that makes a difference.
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by 60800 »

I'm all for seeing her in Br green. I think it would look lovely :mrgreen:
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Re: restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

Post by 60800 »

Well, the NRM does have a streamlined non corridor tender. Wouldn't take too much to de-streamline it and stick it behind 4472 8)

I'll retreat to my nuclear bunker, which rather ironically is Green Arrow's firebox. You wouldn't dare bomb that now, would you? :twisted:
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