restoration or conservation the flying scotsman

[mallardsp126]

Hello all am I one of the few that find that the amount that the NRM are spending on the scotsman is getting out of hand for the latest amount quoted they could have built a new loco .
consider the statement in the heritage press of 1million plus on the boiler alone tornados cost 350 thousand a large differance i think you will agree was this necesary not realy this is what happens when you try to conserve somthing as close to original as possible it gets expensive wheras if you are restoring to working condition it would be renewed instead saving a lot of money.
Also I find it very scary that after working on the loco in question for several years that it is now back in somebody elses workshop striped down and having repairs done to quote multiple cracks in the frames this work will also push up the price .
For me this puts a big question mark against the competance of the engineers in charge of the conservation of scotsman why did it take so long to discover these cracks again very scary to me just think of the headlines that may of happend.
earlier this year the NRM say scotsman ready for running in then fast forwar a bit scotsman run in no problems mainline cert next again fast forward a bit scotsman gets mainline certs all systems go the later on scotsman makes first run since rebuild great success every one verry happy many more to follow again fast forward a few months breaking news on tv radio disaster strikes on national network scotsman crashes dozens killed hundreds injured . All steam traction rail tours cancelled till further notice investigation to take place again fast forward a few weeks results anounced scotsman crash caused by cracks in the main frames not being repaired after rebuild blame layed at NRM doors all steam rail tours canceled permanantly questions asked is heritage steam safe possible ban this as well? .
pure fiction I here you say maybe maybe not in this day of health and safety gone mad but a lot of this could be avoided if instead of conserving locos restore them instead this means if its worn out , cracked etc replace it with new this ends the problem of dodgy repairs which has resulted in the current delay's and will also save a large amount of cash to.
Now before people say that I dont know what I am talking about you should know that I have been in the engineering game for 35 years both in manufacturing and restoration also spent 7 of these years at robey's of lincoln boiler makers where steam rollers etc where restored the proccess involed.
1 strip the engine down
2 shot blast all parts
3 xray all parts to look for cracks
4 replace all cracked parts
5 restore etc
6 rebuild etc
7 retun to customer in compleated form free from faults and defects not with cracked frames or faults
The point I am trying to make is why it took so long to find these faults in scostman
and that are the steam locos that run on the national network actualy fit to run?.
sorry if this is a bit long but I think there are some valid points in what I have said.
thanks for reading bye
Geoff

[mick b]

It has now reached £ 2 and a half million.
The whole scenario is beyond belief why are the NRM not suing for the botched repair/restoration?
This is a public owned Locomotive as is the NRM why is this being allowed to continue amid job cuts etc etc.

I have no grudges re Scotsman and would love to see her run again but above scenario is laughable.

For all the money spent Scotsman is not even close to original in its current condition to either LNER or BR guise.

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

As I have said before I would be amazed if there is one single component on 4472 that was used on the engine in 1923.

Plus what prive authenticity when the NRM are going down the Kylchap / deflector / apple green route? I look forward to Tornado reappearing in apple green then we will have an authentic apple green pacific at last!

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Getting to be a bit of a comedy of errors, which is reflected on the competence of the people running the NRM.....IE, do they really know what they are doing

manna

[S.A.C. Martin]

Scotsman Overhaul Updates, Archive

Click the link above, read at your own speed, and draw your own conclusions.

Anyone who puts all the onus on the NRM for the delays, and money spent on this overhaul, is a fool. Ian Riley's work has been second to none, and whilst there have been problems, that's nothing compared to what I consider to be the unreported story behind Scotsman.

Bought by Marchington for £1.5 Million, overhauled for £1 Million at Southall depot, which still has many of Scotsman's spare parts, if Nat Pres is to be believed.

Frankly I'll continue to support the cause - robbing future generations of 4472, the real deal, whether it's all original or not, is inherently wrong, and selfish at that.

[60041]

I was at a talk given by NRM Director Steve Davis last thursday and the subject of Scotsman came up. He was very guarded with his reply, but promised that he would personally guarantee that it would be ready for early next summer, and would resign if it was not. He also stated that the whole situation was unforgivable and that "a senior engineer had parted company from the NRM" as a result of the debacle.
The previous work carried out on Scotsman over the last 40 years or so appear to been of very mixed quality, some work was very good, but much seems to have been poor at best, and downright dangerous at worst, so the NRM have been forced to remedy a great number of inherited problems in addition to the planned work.
However I find it difficult to understand how cracks in the hornguides were not spotted during any of the numerous stages of dismantling, cleaning, checking, re-assembly and painting etc. and also agree that the cost of the boiler work seems to be out of proportion to the work done; complete replacement would have cost much less - especially considering that the boiler currently fitted, previously on 60041 Salmon Trout, was thought to be in reasonable condition.
I hope the NRM have learnt a few lessons from the whole affair and I sincerely hope that the restored loco proves to be reliable when it returns to the main line next year which will help justify some of the expense.

[52D]

I bet with the bits kicking around including the boiler a second A3 is not beyond the realms of possibility for a decent price, shades of Grand Parade.

[mick b]

There are lots of bits lying around

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Pardon my ignorance, But did Alan Pegler buy the Flying Scotsman with a A4 boiler or an A3, I know he bought Salmon Trouts boiler as a spare, but was it ever used (until now) as I'm starting to get confused, thanks.

manna

[S.A.C. Martin]

G'Day Gents

Pardon my ignorance, But did Alan Pegler buy the Flying Scotsman with a A4 boiler or an A3, I know he bought Salmon Trouts boiler as a spare, but was it ever used (until now) as I'm starting to get confused, thanks.

manna

Between 1996 and 2005 Scotsman ran with the A4 boiler. Previous to that, she has always run with the A3 boiler. You can tell this by the position of the washout plugs (which have been the subject of some debate on here, and headaches!)

She is, for the first time since 1964, closer to being an A3 outright than at any time previous, even under Pegler. The stumbling block is the corridor tender, something she did not have in her A3 form. A non corrior, beaded tender would complete the "authenticity" if we ignore the livery.

I think, however, the corridor tender is a happy compromise based on its usefulness for railtours. Once in BR dark green (and hopefully with the smokebox number plate in the correct position on the top strap, and split handrail as she always wore, and not the compromise of the early 1990s), she will be fully authentic at the locomotive end for her 1960s condition.

[mick b]

I think, however, the corridor tender is a happy compromise based on its usefulness for railtours. Once in BR dark green (and hopefully with the smokebox number plate in the correct position on the top strap, and split handrail as she always wore, and not the compromise of the early 1990s), she will be fully authentic at the locomotive end for her 1960s condition.

Sorry you just contradicted yourself she is not in 1960's condition.

The only possible "authentic" livery is LNER Green with the Corridor in tow and back to single chimney and minus those awful deflectors

[S.A.C. Martin]

I think, however, the corridor tender is a happy compromise based on its usefulness for railtours. Once in BR dark green (and hopefully with the smokebox number plate in the correct position on the top strap, and split handrail as she always wore, and not the compromise of the early 1990s), she will be fully authentic at the locomotive end for her 1960s condition.

Sorry you just contradicted yourself she is not in 1960's condition.

The only possible "authentic" livery is LNER Green with the Corridor in tow and back to single chimney and minus those awful deflectors

Euh...I have not contradicted myself Mick.

Physically, in her current condition with double chimney and smoke deflectors - and as I said above, if you accept the compromise of the corridor tender - the locomotive end is authentic for 1960s condition, and if painted in BR Green as such with the correct smokebox numberplate placement and split handrail, would be authentic to her 1960s condition.

Yes, Pegler preserved her in 1964, but you seem to have forgot the first four years when she was in service with BR - with the double chimney and smoke deflectors.

In any event, single chimney plus A3 boiler would only be authentic for LNER apple green, minus the corridor tender (we're talking postwar LNER here), for Scotsman, in any event. If you want to recreate Pegler's era from 64-68 (pre the American trip), then yes, single chimney, A3 boiler, LNER livery and the corridor tender would be correct!

[richard]

Yes the cracks should have been found at a much earlier stage. My understanding is that the NRM is investigating why they were not - they are as embarrassed as anyone. Also, the complete dis-assembly was to make sure no other frame cracks were missed (the correct course of action if an entire crack inspection was considered suspect). The departure of a senior engineer could well be related.

Also it is quickly forgotten the poor condition that it was in when it was purchased from Tony Marchington's company. The company was in debt and much maintenance had been 'toned down' to put it politely. There are also hints that Marchington's "Rolls Royce Restoration" may not have been all that was claimed at the time. So the NRM get a loco which when they dismantle it is in much poorer condition than they expected. Fundamentally that was the main reason for the delays from the original quotes when it was purchased.

IMHO the "none of the original loco survives" arguments are pretty much irrelevant. The same is true of any locomotive of sufficient age. And even young locos like the 9Fs got through a few boiler swaps during their short lives.

Richard

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

She could be authentic in BR green with a single chimney and corridor tender. She ran trials like this in 1963 before repainting apple green and handing over to Mr Pegler.

However, she was also in three shades of green because I understand that there was a different degree of fading on the boiler, cab and tender.

[strang steel]

Scotsman Overhaul Updates, Archive

Click the link above, read at your own speed, and draw your own conclusions.

But that thread runs to 99 pages

I am not sure that I have the patience to wade through all that.