Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announced!

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Rlangham
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Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announced!

Post by Rlangham »

Just released today....

Image
A new group is being set up to build a replica of one of the armoured trains built in 1914, including an armoured locomotive to haul it. The Armoured Train Project aims to bring something a bit different to preserved railways (it is currently planned, although not confirmed, that it will be possible to carry passengers) as well as remembering the home front and the threat of invasion from Germany, just as feared in the First World War as it was in the Second
I don't know if it's an exact recreation of the original locomotive, but if so, it is a Great Northern Railway 0-6-2T. The tender they were fitted with a while after the original construction and armouring is the same as that soon to be surplus to requirements at the National Railway Museum when the correct tender for GNR No 1, the 4-2-2 Stirling Single, is completed
Author of 'The North Eastern Railway in the First World War' - now available in paperback!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/

Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask
50A
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by 50A »

Was it released this morning by any chance......... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by mick b »

My thoughts as well :D
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by Rlangham »

Not fair! I fooled at least three people today when I posted it from my NER in WW1 page..... Oh well! Does anyone know IF the spare GNR tender would be a match though? Maybe I'll do it in N or OO gauge one day...
Author of 'The North Eastern Railway in the First World War' - now available in paperback!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/

Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask
john coffin
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by john coffin »

who said the train ever had a tender??? how would they have armoured it?

more importantly who says the present tender is surplus to requirements???

almost as good as the scots driving on the right :lol:
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by Rlangham »

john coffin wrote:who said the train ever had a tender??? how would they have armoured it?

more importantly who says the present tender is surplus to requirements???

almost as good as the scots driving on the right :lol:
paul
There's a photo of it with the tender in Alan Earnshaw's 'Britains railways at war 1914-1918'
Author of 'The North Eastern Railway in the First World War' - now available in paperback!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/

Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by mick b »

Its a Tank engine why would it need a Tender :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by john coffin »

the picture in Groves, does show a tender on the train, but I do note that it is after the war, so are there any known wartime pictures of the train?? Reading Groves properly, it seems that the tender was numbered 981 and sold at the very beginning 1915 of the war. Interesting that they only sold one tender though, so it would seem that in the past I have only seen the "wrong train" ie without the tender. :shock:

It is not a tender similar to the one behind No1, rather a another style of Stirling tender with inside springs, probably from what became a J3/4.

Like Mick, I do wonder why an armoured train would have an open tender behind a tank engine :?

Paul
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by mr B »

maybe the tender was off a 'Pom Pom' :mrgreen:

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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by mick b »

or thats where they kept the shells :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

sorry couldnt resist :D :D
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

john coffin wrote: almost as good as the scots driving on the right :lol:
paul
I thought the Irish had tried that out but abandoned the idea as dangerous, notwithstanding a cautiously phased-in arrangement applying only to trucks and buses at first.......
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by mick b »

Soup in a basket wasnt too good a idea either :D :D
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by Rlangham »

Regarding the train, and it's tender, I have the following information;

From 'Britain's Railways at War 1914-1918' by Alan Earnshaw
On November 14th 1914 the Railway War Manufacturers sub-committee of the Railway Executive authorised the construction of two armoured train for coastal defence. Each train consisted of two 30 ton Caledonian Railway boiler trolleys, converted for use as gun trucks, two 40 ton GWR coal trucks, which were used as infantry vans, and an 0-6-2 side tank loco. Later a locomotive tender was provided to give the extra capacity required for the long patrols which the trains undertook, these patrol areas being on the NBR lines north of Edinburgh, and on the Midland & Great Northern joint lines, where the picture was taken
The photograph mentioned shows the tender, behind the bunker of the locomotive, it does not appear to be armoured in any way but could easily be done so by just putting armour plating around it

From Britain's Railways in World War One' by JAB Hamilton, where the above photograph comes from;

"We must add a word about the armoured trains, made out of a remarkable collection of railway bits and pieces by the LNWR at Crewe. The two gun trucks, each carrying a twelve-pounder and a machine gun, were formed out of Caledonian thirty ton boiler trolleys; the two infantry trucks were converted from Great Western forty ton coal trucks, while the Great Northern supplied one of its 0-6-2Ts used on the London suburban services. The whole was encased in 1/2 inch plating, and could be driven from the engine cab or either end. The first train was built early in 1915 and went to work on the M & GN line in Norfolk. A second train - components from the same lines as before, and with another Great Northern 0-6-2T - was sent to the Fife coast"
Author of 'The North Eastern Railway in the First World War' - now available in paperback!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/

Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by Rlangham »

From 'Britain's Railways in the Great War' by Pratt;
For the contribution of the two armoured trains, the charges made came to £7,353 and £7,680 respectively
The evolution of armoured trains, from the time of the first recorded
suggestion thereof, in 1859, and the services rendered by them in the
American Civil War of 1861-65, the Egyptian Campaign of 1882, the
Nile Expedition of 1884-85, and the South African War of 1899-1902,
have already been recorded in the present writer's work on " The Rise
of Rail-Power." Taking up the story afresh from the point there left
off, it may be said that the war in South Africa had more especially
established their utility, and it was inevitable, when the possibilities of
an attempt at invasion of this country came up for discussion in the
early days of the Great War, that measures should be taken to ensure a
provision of such trains for the purposes of coast defence.
One of the first requests made by the War Office to the Railway
Executive on the formation of their Railway War Manufactures Subcommittee
in November, 1914, was, in fact, that the companies would
undertake to supply an armoured train for the purposes stated, such
train to be constructed on the general plan of those employed in South
Africa, with, however, various improvements.. The matter was taken
in hand at once and the desired train ran its trial trip, from Crewe to
Chester and back, on December 26th, 1914.
The train consisted of two gun trucks, two infantry vans (or garrison
vehicles) and an engine. For the purposes of the gun trucks, the Caledonian
Railway Company supplied two 30-ton boiler-trolley ; the
infantry vans were converted from two Great Western Railway Company's
40-ton coal wagons, and the engine was supplied by the Great Northern
Railway Company. These component parts were sent to the London
and North Western Railway Company's locomotive works at Crewe,
where the work of armouring and completing the train was done.
Each gun truck consisted of three compartments—a gun platform,
an ammunition compartment, and a Maxim-gun compartment. On the gun platform there was fixed a 12-pdr. quick-firing gun, with
shield complete. The gun had an approximate range of three miles.
It was placed midway between the bogie wheels so as to distribute the
weight equally between the two axles. The platform itself was protected
by 1/2-inch steel plates 3 ft. 2 in. high, fixed firmly to the main frame
of the truck, and having four loop-holes, 12 in. X 4 in., on each side and
three in front. These loop-holes, .provided for the purposes of rifle -fire,
were fitted with sliding doors which could be securely closed when not in
use. In the ammunition compartment there was a cupboard for 12-pdr.
shells and cases of cartridges. Observation and rifle loop-holes were
provided at the sides, in the angle, in front, or over the door to the platform.
The Maxim-gun compartment had openings so arranged as to
give good play to the gun, and there were, also, loop-holes provided for
rifle-fire. Provision was made for the storage of a good supply of Maximgun
and other ammunition. It was, further, in the gun vehicle that the
officer in charge of the train had his headquarters.
The underframe of each infantry van was of steel, and the steelplate
armour of the upper structure was J-in. thick at the sides and
f-in. thick on the roof. In each side of the van twenty-eight rifle loopholes,
with sliding doOrs, were provided. The interiors of the compartments
were fitted with folding tables, lockers, drinking-water tanks,
coal fire cooking stove and rifle racks. One of the vans had two coal
bunkers, each holding one ton of coal for the use of the locomotive, \Afhile
underneath the frame were four water tanks, each containing 200 gallons
of watec, also for the use of the locomotive, the water being fed into the
engine tanks by means of an inspirator or water lifter. In each instance
the coal or water in the infantry vans was regarded only as 3. reserve
supply, in case of need. One of the vans was open throughout. In
the other, ofiicers' quarters had been partitioned off.
The! engine was a side tank, of the 0-6-2 type. The water capacity
was i,6oo gallons, and the coal bunkers were equal to the holding of
four tons of coal. Every part of the engine was protected by J-in. plates,
not only all parts above the framing, but the machinery below being
armoured. The cab windows were furnished with metal sliding shutters,
and on each side of the cab there was a special look-out.
In the make-up of the train, the engine was placed in the centre. Next
to it, on each side, came one of the infantry vans, the gun trucks following
as first and last vehicles. The driving could be done from the engine
footplate, in the usual way, or, alternatively, from either end of the train,
the latter arrangement being carried out by means of an " intermediate
regulator valve," fixed on the side of the engine smoke-box, and controlled
through a link and lever actuated by a small vacuum cylinder
on the engine footplate, and connected with a vacuum regulating valve
fixed in any convenient position at each end of the train.
Platforms were so arranged between each vehicle and alongside the
engine that, men could pass from one end of the train to the other, if
required, these platforms being also protected by armour plates.

All the vehicles were provided with connecting gangways ; loudsounding
telephones were fitted in, each of them so as to allow of orders
being transmitted from any one part of the train to another ; lighting
was supplied by carbide lights fixed to the sides of the vehicles, the
generator, located at the end of one of the infantry vans, being connected
with the lights in each vehicle by a small pipe, and the train was, also,
fitted throughout with the automatic vacuum brake.
So satisfied were the military authorities with this first armoured
train for service at home that within less than a month of its completion
and delivery, the War Office asked to be supplied with a second, constructed
on the same lines. The Railway War Manufactures Subcommittee
thereupon began afresh ; the Caledonian Company supplied
two more 30-ton boiler trolleys and the Great Western two more 40-
ton coal wagons for gun trucks and infantry vans respectively ; the
Great Northern willingly spared another condensing tank engine, the
engineers and their staff at Crewe again carried out the work of armouring
and general completion, and the finished train was delivered in due
course.
The two were " stabled," one on the lines of the Midland and Great
Northern Joint Railway on the Norfolk coast, and the other on the lines
of the North British Railway Company, north of Edinburgh ; but
from these headquarters they made frequent runs throughout the -war
period over the coastal or inland lines which they might have required
to use in case of emergency. Steam was always kept up in readiness
for anything that might happen.
Railway traffic officers, commissioned in the Royal Engineers for
the purpose, would at once have become responsible for the working of
the trains had an emergency arisen. Staffs of engine-drivers and firemen
were always in readiness, and it was arranged that although, in their
case, they would remain civilians for the time being, certain men allocated
thereto would, in the event of their having to undertake war duties, at
once be enrolled (under conditions which will be narrated in the following
section), in order to ensure that, in the event of their capture by enemy
invaders, they would be entitled to the treatment of soldiers instead of
being shot as civilians engaged in warfare. For the manning of the
guns and the repelling of any attack or of any attempted invasion the
responsibility would be undertaken exclusively by the Army men taken
up on the train.
Full directions as to the " Working of Armoured Trains " were
prepared for the instruction of the responsible staffs of every company
concerned therein, all possible contingencies being foreseen and provided
for, as far as possible , Apart from matters of detail to which there is no
occasion to refer, the following passages might be quoted from the general
instructions :

Armoured trains will be accompanied by a Traffic Officer who will advise stationmasters
and signalmen with regard to the arrangements for the working of the
train, and every one must see that prompt attention is given to the running and working of these trains and that the instructions of the Traffic Officer are carried
out.
The engine working of the armoured train will, in the ordinary course, be in
charge of a military driver and a military fireman. A guard and a driver to act
as pilotmen and to assist as may be required must be appointed to work with the
armoured train.
When the engine is stationed in the middle of the train, the fireman will remain
with the engine and will act under the instructions of the military driver, who will
communicate with him by telephone as may be necessary.
The military driver and the pilot driver will ride at the leading end of the train,
the pilot being responsible for the due observance of signals.
The Great Northern Railway Company supplied two 0-6-2 type
Metropolitan side tank engines, fitted with condensing gear, for conversion
into armoured engines for coast-defence duties.
Any spelling mistakes etc due to copy and pasting from a .pdf document!
Author of 'The North Eastern Railway in the First World War' - now available in paperback!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/

Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask
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Re: Not just a replica locomotive.... a replica TRAIN announ

Post by 52D »

Shades of the Lauder light railway with Tenders for tank engines. The Lauder line used tenders to reduce the axle load of the tank engines.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
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