Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

[MikeTrice]

At the time of the Locomotive Trials the only change in livery was the renumbering. I have a couple of photos from that time which seem to suggest the lining is still there. When the Dynamometer Car was rebranded all the original lettering was obliterated and replaced with BR style lettering in different panels. Certainly at this point there is no lining evident and it is my belief that this is when the body was repainted. Graining patterns visible in the photograph match those of the preserved vehicle however I have not managed to match the graining patterns on the earlier photographs which again might suggest a repaint. As far as I am aware the early days of BR still had ex-LNER coaches being turned out in ersatz teak albeit unlined until final BR liveries were determined.

[adrianbs]

Hi Folks As I have already pointed out, complacency and gullibility will save the day for Rails. They will lose a few sales for sure but we can see from the posts above that many will still buy the model even though they wanted the early variant. Reference was made above to white black white LNER lining and I wonder how many on this forum would accept a newly released full price LNER A3 in apple green where the white lining has been completely omitted ??
…. Many modellers are unbelievably complacent/gullible/ignorant and I refer you to the comments on the dark side about the Dapol LSWR Livery B4 0.4.0 Tank that has just been released. The Pea green livery with black borders is a very attractive livery PROVIDED the two colours are separated by a WHITE line. Dapol seem to think that this white line is superfluous/does not exist? for their collectors model even though the Maunsell black loco has green lining and the docks Brown model has red lining, neither of which were anywhere near as prominent as the white line. Some modellers have, no doubt, paid to join the Collectors Club just to get this version but I doubt many will return the model and ask for a refund for both model and subscription. Even if the lining were present the model has so many detail errors and omissions any knowledgeable modeller would probably give it a wide berth unless prepared to do major surgery which would probably require a full repaint. Nevertheless the model will be a sell-out I predict !!

[S.A.C. Martin]

Couple of things, having looked at the photos online, talked at length with a few knowledgeable LNER chaps and being very familiar with the actual vehicle in question (and also owning a Golden Age brass one)...

I can absolutely accept the lining out issue will be a "red line" (pun intended) for some individuals. That is fine: one man's fish is another man's poisson.

What I cannot fathom is the ferocity of the approach of the criticism. Is it really necessary?

Physically this model of this coach is the best there is. It surpasses the Golden Age easily and I don't say that lightly. The subtle moulded details, the interior, the finish (bar the lining) - all streets ahead. I won't be replacing my Golden Age one - I'd rather buy a Stirling Single, tbh - but if I was buying one, the lining out isn't my red line.

Lining out a coach isn't something we can all do. Modellers will make up their mind whether it is something they can do or not. For everyone else, this is the best model of the dynamometer car you can buy. Unless you have the pockets for the Golden Age model plus modifications for couplings etc, then this is it. You have no choice in the matter. You either want an LNER dynamometer car or you don't.

Regarding when the lining disappeared - lining out coaches disappeared under Thompson's reign as CME during the war years. You may be able to narrow down the dates more. I'd say given its well photographed use in 1948's exchange trials, post 1941 it's likely to have had repainting at some point. It was still being used for various locomotive trials behind a variety of locomotives (including most of the Thompson Pacifics and similar). Perhaps it is worth looking more closely at the war years at similar coaching stock too - the LNER had a very much "make do and mend" policy in some respects.

It would not surprise me to find similar coaches lined and unlined together in photographs - I have recently been looking at older clerestory stock and was surprised by what I found in the 40s. Intriguing stuff. Surprising that we don't have a definitive answer, given the dynamometer car's history and provenance (and preservation).

[MikeTrice]

Bear in mind the Dynamometer Car probably had far less use in terms of mileage than normal carriage stock. I also assume that when not in use it was kept under cover.

Comments so far have suggested that the Locomotive Trials version was unlined. I suspect the lining was dropped when it was rebranded on entering BR. So just to add to the controversy here is an extract from a photo taken during the 1948 Locomotive Trials. Lined or a trick of the light?

[Bunkerbarge]

Just a question for the more knowledgeable, would it be a possibility that photographs from such a period could be retouched, maybe not too skillfully and end up making the coach look like it was lined when in actual fact it might not have been?

Is there perhaps any written documentation from any credible source available?

[adrianbs]

Hi Folks I think Bunkerbarge is clutching at straws, surely he cannot believe all these photos have been retouched just for the benefit of getting Rails out of the hole they have dug for themselves. The idea that all the lining was reflections off the beading was more than far fetched and now we seem to be getting into the realms of pure fantasy. For £125 the model is extremely expensive even if you wanted the unlined later version. Let's not forget this model is exclusive to Rails and if it were a general release model the RRP would have to be approaching £200.
…...There are brand new 7mm RTR coaches available with a similar level of detail and decoration AND LIGHTING with RRPs less than £200 on general release. Discounted prices for these are little more than the price being asked for this 4mm coach, I know since I have just bought a set of 4. Time and time again recently we have had spurious arguments put forward as to why many new models are so inaccurate, they all boil down eventually to the manufacturer/commissioner not knowing what they are doing and leaving it to Chinese designers to guess what the prototypes looked like. Lets not forget the laughable ?? errors on the LNER cattle truck, the LNER 6 plank open and the awful LNER ex NBR mineral. I will refrain from mentioning the long list of non LNER prototypes similarly afflicted.
…...We keep hearing that some of these new RTR products are coming from small firms with limited resources, just how large do people think the resources of the "one man band" manufacturer/designer/researcher/packer/ distributor/ retailer/exhibition manager/secretary/floor sweeper really are. I will admit that the floor sweeping in my business was not of the highest order, I hate the noise Hoovers make
....It would be most interesting to know whether the NRM experts who were consulted here are the ones who it was claimed could spot an error a mile off with one eye closed. They approved a certain NCIM Dean Goods which finished up with innumerable faults and would have been far worse had it actually been intended to portray 2516 in the late 20s/early 30s as originally specified.!!

[Bunkerbarge]

I don't think it has anything to do with clutching at straws I was simply asking an open ended question of members here who I assume to have a much deeper level of knowledge on certain subjects. I'm sure all we are looking for no more than is what was the correct livery for this particular coach at the time depicted. I have no affiliations with any model railway vendor and in fact have some of my own concerns as regards marketing practises followed by a number of them however I am somewhat surprised at the less than objective vehement tirade directed against one here.

I joined this forum only a few days ago for no other reason than to seek further knowledge on specific LNER issues that I may unearth in the future as I put together my own LNER based model railway layout. I must admit I was expecting a slightly warmer welcome than I have seen so far and perhaps a more open and inclusive approach towards sourcing answers.

In this particular case I have no axe to grind, I was simply interested in just what actual irrefutable evidence there may be available to conclusively prove whether this coach was lined or not at the time it is supposedly modelled. To me, if the only evidence are a number of black and white photographs from a period in time when the quality of photographic equipment was notoriously inconsistent, should we consider that as conclusive? My question above then went further to consider whether there may have been reason at the time to doctor/edit/modify such pictures for the sake of improving quality or even changing the appearrance for the coach which may have the consequence of enhancing reflections to look like lining. I do not know but I was hoping that there maybe a member here who could add something more constructive to the discussion.

To be honest I have seen so many of such discussions on so many other forums over the years where there seems to be equally vehement and inflexible arguments put forward on such subjects as the colour of a Type VII U-Boat hull to the ratio of cutting plank dimensions to correctly joggle it into the king plank on a boat deck to realise that there is invariably a recurring answer and that is we simply do not know. If this is the case based on the fact that there is insufficient evidence to prove either way, as may be the situation here, then would it not be reasonable to assume that what is being presented cannot be wrong because it cannot be proven to be so?

Could someone perhaps also explain why a model that is exclusive to one supplier at £125.00 would be 'nearer to £200.00' if it was on general release? Surely the normal behaviour of market forces would dictate that an exclusive limited number item would fetch a higher price than one generally available?

I remain open to any directions towards any actual evidence that we may have available to prove the issue above either way however in the absence of such evidence maybe it might generate a slightly more freindly atmosphere on here if we simply respected every one elses differening opinions and accepted that they may not and do not have to be in line with our own.

[adrianbs]

Hi Folks I do hope Bunkerbarge has read the extensive forum details under the title "NER Dynanmometer Car" elsewhere on "The LNER Encyclopedia" forum. Mike Trice has an enviable record for his research and modelling and I am myself quite happy with the conclusions he has come to. Bearing in mind there are quite a number of photos taken at different times by different people it seems most unlikely they would all have gone to the trouble to manipulate their images to give the impression of lining. Why on earth would they have done so as they would surely be aware there was no lining when their pictures were taken.
….With regard the pricing I assume Rails have priced this to give themselves a satisfactory profit based on the numbers they have had to have made. Had they decided to offer it on general release they would still have wanted to make the same profit and would therefore have had to add the normal mark-up to retailers willing to sell this item. This does vary but in general means a 50% price increase to give the retailer a margin of 33%. This would give a RRP of £187-50. Since the Golden Age model to be made in Korea was priced at £345,and was not on general release, GA clearly believed that the model would sell at that price. I do not have one but do have some of their 7mm Pullmans which were of the order £800 each. These were not one-off models, for those the price can easily reach £2000 for something rather special.
....Personally if I wanted one of these in the earlier period I would not be prepared to pay this amount with the lining missing, just as I would not be prepared to buy the Dapol LSWR pea green B4 loco which also has the lining absent.

[mick b]

A polite response.


If the model was released by a major company, the amount released would have been much higher. As anyone knows the more you make in anything, the cheaper they become.

The Dyno car is of very limited appeal, and Rails are taking a big chance on selling them all, the price I have no problem with due limited production and the amount of work that has gone into the design etc. The lining yes or no saga,won't help the sales either . Quite sad as the consumer is the one who will suffer in the long run.

At the moment I am sitting on a fence awaiting the actual release photos. Sorry no ranting involved

[Dave S]

I must admit I was expecting a slightly warmer welcome than I have seen so far and perhaps a more open and inclusive approach towards sourcing answers.

Welcome to the forum.

Sadly this forum constantly refers to RMWeb as "The Dark Side" and yet constantly links to it for subjects. There is a lot of info and good people here, but also posters banned from other forum for their attitude towards others ..... as you've noticed.

[Atlantic 3279]

Another way to look at that same situation is that some of the most "individual" characters on here have an incredible amount of knowledge. It can be well worth listening to what they have to say, whether or not the way it is said suits all tastes.

[Dave S]

Another way to look at that same situation is that some of the most "individual" characters on here have an incredible amount of knowledge. It can be well worth listening to what they have to say, whether or not the way it is said suits all tastes.

Sorry but I don't agree. If someone cannot be civil to others and refers to them in the 3rd person as if to exclude them, they're not worth listening to.

[adrianbs]

Well Done Dave S for referring to me in the THIRD person. Not sure if anyone now wishes to listen to you after that !!

[Dave S]

Well Done Dave S for referring to me in the THIRD person. Not sure if anyone now wishes to listen to you after that !!

Well if you're not sure I'd wait until you are, at present you're only posting your opinion which isn't based on fact and is of little consequence to me.

[adrianbs]

Hi Folks And here's the real sting in the tail and which I fully believe to be true. Those who have taken the trouble to read the 2013 topic I referred to earlier " NER Dynamometer Car" and cross referenced the dates with those to be found on the internet under "1948 Locomotive exchanges" will realise that during the Exchanges in all probability THE CAR WAS STILL FULLY LINED and that it was not repainted until just after the trials had been completed. This means that both versions as offered by Rails should be lined and the model only represents the coach after it was repainted in September 1948. It does of course represent the car as preserved but even that finish has been altered from 1948 when preserved in 1963 with the lettering not exactly matching the 1948 style. No doubt Mike Trice would be delighted if anyone could add further reliable information, even if it contradicts his timeline.