Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

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Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by Graeme Leary »

I have replicated the West Riding Pullman and the 7 carriage formation I have consists of 3 8 wheel carriages and 4 12 wheel carriages (based on info provided by the Pullman Society).

On some of the slightly tighter curves the 6 wheel bogies occasionally have a tendency to derail as the wheelspan between the inner and outer wheels is much wider compared with the 4 wheel bogies (48mm v 40mm).

To eliminate the problem I've had 2 suggestions:-

(1) Replace the centre wheels on the 6 wheel bogies with non-flanged wheels or
(b) Replace the centre wheels with a smaller diameter (but still flanged) wheel, the idea being that this should allow enough clearance above the track and still give the look of a flanged wheel.

Has any other member had this issue and if so, how did they resolve it?

Many thanks.

Graeme Leary
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Are you sure that the centre wheel sets have anything to do with the problem?

What if the greater length of the bogies, when the bogies turn, is leading to interference between the tops of the outer wheel sets and the inside edges of the solebars?

If the latter, then you can possibly nibble some material out of the inside edges of the solebars to gain clearance, just above the end wheels of each bogie. Alternatively, spoiling the appearance somewhat, you can jack the body up higher on some washers over the bogie pivots. Even more drastically, you could cut the lower parts of the solebars away completely over the bogies, as I think Hornby did on a certain LMS vehicle.

OR, don't ask twelve wheeled carriages to go round such tight curves.
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Hatfield Shed
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Re: Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by Hatfield Shed »

I agree, and the first experiment to determine this is to simply remove the centre wheelset from each bogie, and test the operation in that form.

If they still derail, then no amount of tinkering with the centre wheelset will be effective, it's a clearance issue with the bogie end wheelsets. Look for any witness marks where these wheels are fouling on the coach.

(I only briefly had a couple of these to play with on my layout, which at the time had a 30" minimum radius, and they were happy on that.)
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All thumbs
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Re: Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by All thumbs »

I have replicated the West Riding Pullman and the 7 carriage formation I have consists of 3 8 wheel carriages and 4 12 wheel carriages (based on info provided by the Pullman Society).
Graeme, are you able to share which Hornby Pullmans you've used for the WRP? Also which years are you modelling? Would something similar work for the Harrogate Pullman?

Thanks.
Be gentle! Returning to the hobby after more than 20 years away...
Graeme Leary
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Re: Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by Graeme Leary »

Thanks Hatfield Shed nd Atlantic 3279 - will try your suggestions in a moment or two. (Unfortunately eliminating the tighter curves is not a 'goer' as my entire layout is well and truly ballasted in - well before I was even aware of the 12 wheel Pullman carriages).

All Thumbs: I was given 3 different WRP sets from the Pullman Society and opted for a 7 car set (which worked in June 1928) as my platform length is limited to this number of carriages:-

I am not proficient in posting material on the forum so here are the details (with the Hornby Pullman coaches used - no doubt some inaccuracies but these were the closest at the time I was working on this set). All have been renumbered/renamed using Fox Transfers to the name/numbers as noted in the Pullman Society info.

Clayton 12 wheel Third Class Car No 49 Kitchen Non smoking (Renumbered from Hornby R4476 1st class Kitchen)
Clayton 12 wheel Third Class Car No 45 Kitchen Smoking (Renumbered from Hornby R4476 1st class Kitchen)
Midland 8 wheel IOLANTHE Kitchen Non smoking (Renamed from Hornby R4480 1st class Kitchen)
Midland 8 wheel FORTUNA Kitchen Smoking (Renamed from Hornby R4423 1st class Kitchen)
Clayton 12 wheel Third class Car No 51 Kitchen Smoking (Renumbered from Hornby R4476 1st class Kitchen)
Clayton 8 wheel Third Class Car No 54 Kitchen Non smoking (Renumbered from Hornby R4251 1st class Kitchen)
Clayton 12 wheel CAMBRIA Brake Smoking (Renamed from Hornby R4477 1st class Brake)

Some of the Hornby carriages used may not be exactly accurate but they were the only ones I could identify as hopefully being 'acceptable'. (Modeller's Rule 1 applies)

The other sets I have are for May 1926 and August 1927 (both a 8 carriage sets). If you wish let me have your email address and I can scan and send over.

As far as the Harrogate Pullman goes, according to W B Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines - Part 1' the Harrogate Pullman was the first of the named trains and. using 2 additional cars the LNER had inherited, then became the West Riding Pullman and later the Yorkshire Pullman. This would suggest to me that a number of my June 1928 WRP set could have previously been used in the Harrogate Pullman.

Hope of some help (and now back to Hatfield Shed and Atlantic 3279's suggestions!)

Graeme Leary
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All thumbs
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Re: Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by All thumbs »

Graeme, thank you so much - very helpful especially the Hornby model references. Am I right in thinking you've gone for exapmles with internal lighting? Are they also a mix of matchboard and steel panels?

I can't remember exactly when the change was but have you altered the livery panel above the windows from umber to cream? If so, have you repainted or is there a transfer panel available?
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Graeme Leary
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Re: Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by Graeme Leary »

All Thumbs - pleased of some help.

All 7 Hornby models in my Pullman set are matchwood and all have interior lighting.

I don't have all 3 of Antony M Ford's 'Pullman Profile' but details in No 3 'The All-Steel 'K-Type' Cars' and the running numbers/names in the Pullman Society set do not appear in the index. Therefore I think it is safe to assume these will be matchwood, as Hornby make the models. (If you can get Vols Nos 1 and 2 that would probably confirm it).

I have not altered the models (well, other than a pretty rough job on one to repaint the roof to more accurately represent grime and the like) so they are as made. The panels above the windows are all in the same colour as the main body, a 'brownish' colour which I presume is 'umber'.

Interestingly, looking into this panel colour change, photos in Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines', show the WRP have what appears to be the cream 'above window' panels in photos dated 1929, 1927 and the darker colour (Umber??) in 1933 and 1935. As mine are the darker colour this tells me I should alter these panels on my June 1928 set to cream but this may be 'Rule 1' - it's my layout so I'll do what I'm happy with! (I also have an undated photo with C1 4435 working a cream top panel set - this without a headboard which Yeadon's states were only introduced in 1932).

I also have 'West Riding Pullman' carriage roofboards on each plus 2 locos (which I've seen actual photos of) with the WRP loco headboard, A1s 2580/Shotover and 4474/Victor Wild and a C1 (without the headboard) which I shall renumber, probably to 3288 or 4435.

More intracacies in an another absorbing railways topic, hope of some help (and of course, open to correction from other members).

Graeme Leary
Graeme Leary
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Re: Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by Graeme Leary »

All Thumbs: PS to my last reply.

After your query about 'Umber' v cream panels above the windows a further look at Yeadon's Part 1 shows the later 'Yorkshire Pullman' with the darker (umber?) panels and I think I will change my WRP to the Yorkshire Pullman, which was the express I planned to replicate originally. However, I will need to check with the Pullman Society for a range of Yorkshire Pullman sets (and hope there is one set with 12 wheel carriages - of which I have 4 Hornby models).

I have a range of locos that appear in various Yorkshire Pullman photos (as well as the to-be-expected A1/3 and A4, even a N2, V2 & J49) and it will be less problematical to change both the loco headboards and the carriage roof boards to these (and more business for Fox Transfers).

The last running of the WRP was Saturday 28th September, 1935, after which it (along with including Hull and a time change) was renamed Yorkshire Pullman (Yeadon again).

Watch this space.

Graeme
Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Hornby 12 wheel Pullman carriages

Post by Graeme Leary »

A closer looks suggests my problem is not the 6 wheel bogies but the 'drop down' rod from the NEM couplings (there to trigger uncoupling when crossing the uncoupling brackets fixed between tracks). When slowing down on my tight(ish) curves the tension comes off the couplings, these rods then drop very slightly which can be enough to foul the rail that the carriages are passing over.

This 'eureka' moment will hasten up my move to 'close couplings' or Kadee couplings; not without some issues themselves but probably the answer.

All Thumbs: re the cream v umber panels above the windows in my WRP. I have decided 'Rule 1' applies, it is my layout so I will stick with the umber panels on my WRP June 1928 set, ie umber top panels when they should be cream. Changing to 'Yorkshire Pullman' could open up another can of worms so will put my pedantry to one side and keep 'as is'. (But many thanks for drawing my attention to this, a fact I was unaware of then).

Graeme
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