Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

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drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by drmditch »

For some time I have been hankering about building an NER Inspection Saloon.
Having left it until a time of lockdown, when the NERA archive and the Search Engine at York are unavailable, I've had to assemble what information I have in my library, and what can be found on-line. To avoid cluttering up the modelling forum, I've posted most of this story ... in the Locomotives and Rolling stock forum....

(There is a good story about Gresley and Aerolite and a wheel falling off!)

Some of the excellent modellers on this forum have used the D&S kit of a Type B vehicle. I did see a such a kit on Ebay last week for over £100!
My plan has been to use the drawing of the Dia.85 Saloon shown in 'NER Diagrams of Passenger Train Vehicles’ Book No.2 (published by NERA).

I have a stock of the old-type Triang-Hornby clerestory vehicles. These are useful because they have round-cornered panelling as used by the NER, and I have used them before for NER vehicles as ...here...

So, I scanned the drawing and printed it out to scale, and then started 'cutting plastic' here:
Post_01.jpg
with a moulding cut to length.
Then the structure above the waist-line is cut away:
Post_02.jpg
and then re-assembled from otherwise scrap parts of the moulding. (I also had some 'spares' left over from previous conversions.
Post_03.jpg
There then has to be quite a lot of scraping and filing and letting-in of small plastic sections. The cross-bulkheads and ends have to be worked out an set in. (Cardboard templates are always useful and cheap!) There may need to be more work after an initial coat of paint.
Post_04.jpg
The underframe is being constructed on the same lines as my NB six-wheel van described ...here... using re-cycled Bachmann wagon underframe parts. I'll post more about that later - when I've started w0ork on the springs!

At the moment, I am not sure about the mouldings on both ends. The Dia.85 drawing is different to two of the surviving Type Bs, and I don't know when the rear window was cut in. I have asked some questions on the Locomotive and Rolling stock post. If anyone can help, I would be be grateful.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

I'm glad to see somebody else who is not above butchering Triang short clerestory bodies to make something more realistic and relevant to the LNER. I have another little scheme involving those, awaiting the attention of knives and saws, when time allows.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
drmditch
LNER P2 2-8-2
Posts: 996
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:55 pm
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by drmditch »

Some progress has been made. I'm not entirely happy with the work so far, but some of the problems can be corrected.

The basic wheelbase is constructed from re-cycled w-irons cut from old Bachmann underframes. They have brass 'top-hat' bearings sunk in with a small soldering iron.
Post_05.jpg
These then lock into a plastic and brass structure, which is then bolted between the original Triang/Hornby solebars.
Post_06a.jpg
Note that for the centre position the solebars have to be milled out so that the 'sliding axle' has more room to slide!
Post_06b.jpg
Sorry the retaining plates aren't square in the picture - this isn't yet the final assembly - they do their job though!

I was going to fabricate the roof from plastic or brass. but I then realised the the curvature of the roofs on the 'old' shortie Mainline/Bachmann cattle wagons (which had already sacrificed their underframes to a better cause) was an exact match to the drawings. Two of them were cut (square) and attached end-to-end.
Post_10.jpg
(The cut out is for the water tank - see below)
drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by drmditch »

To attach the roof I have emulated the original Triang/Hornby method (although this may turn out to be for construction only.)
A captive nut soldered to a brass plate (bent to the correct curvature) was superglued to the inside of the roof,
Post_11.jpg
and then further locked in place by more plastic.
Post_12.jpg
The retaining bolt was fabricated from a brass bolt soldered into brass tube. It is locked at the top by another captive nut (later filed round) so that it cannot be over-turned to push against the actual plastic of the roof.

(You can be left to guess at which point in this fabrication I attempted to solder my left forefinger!)
drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by drmditch »

The interior partitions were actually made earlier in the process. The curved tops to the partition doors come from pictures of the Type 4 saloon being restored at Alnwick. Unfortunately the 'big brass bolt' will rather interfere with this view when finally assembled!
Post_09.jpg
The ends of the vehicle were built up from carefully cut thin plastic overlays. Note that the Dia.85 vehicle has simpler panelling than the Type B (as represented by the D&S kit.)
Post_14.jpg
Post_15.jpg
As ever, this set of photographs show a number of problems, some of which are correctible - and some not. However, overall, I'm not entirely unhappy.
Post_13.jpg
As you can see, most features on the drawing are represented.

The group at the Aln Valley Railway who are restoring the Type B No.41 were kind enough to respond to an email, and have sent me some very useful pictures of the underframe, and springing. That is the next major challenge!

(And this morning Mick B sent me a link to a D&S kit on Ebay - for a much more reasonable price than the last one I saw. Never mind, I think I am so far on with this one I will press on with it. After all, no-one else will have a Saloon to this diagram.)
drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by drmditch »

Very slow progress over the summer. Partly a health issue, and partly having got a bit stuck with the Inspection Saloon and it's footboards, which demand a bit of (for me) complex brass fabrication.

Oh yes, and a strange wiring problem as well.

Eventually, to try and break the 'mental logjam, I have produced another Cattle Wagon.
Post_02.jpg
I somehow acquired another Oxford product while on a visit to the Stainmore Railway at Kirkby Stephen (suffixed 'East' for those of a Midland/LMS/LMR persuasion - followers of the 'true faith' of the SDLUR/S&D/NER/LNER of course do not need the qualifier). An excellent and interesting railway site and well worth a visit, and can be combined with a (short) walk provided by the Northern Viaducts Trust.

Unlike my previous Cattle Wagon models, this one is 'unfitted', with a 9' wheelbase built to Dia.40.
This is a much quicker and easier conversion than the 10' wheelbase 'fitted' version seen .....here......

To summarise:-
Dismantle the 'out of the box' vehicle, by :-
Pulling out the buffers (which secure the bottom and the top together.)
Removing all the brake gear. This is also largely 'pull out'
Leave the moulded loops emulating the locking arrangements for the brake handles.
Correct the problem with the 'unhanded' sides.
Fill the small holes on each end where the vacuum pipes were located.
Create new Morton clutch/single sided brake gear. I used unused spare mouldings from previous kit constructions. The handles fitted well into the
retained locking arrangements. I also reworked the plastic a bit, and added flattened wire safety loops. (This is a 'thing' of mine.)
Repainted, grey as befits an unfitted vehicle. Mine is numbered for a batch built in 1929 at Faverdale.

Then, to make like difficult for myself, I thought I would try to represent the roof planking, which on some photographs of similar vehicles can be seen showing through the worn canvas. I cannot remember having seen this done before. (And now all those clever modellers who contribute to this forum will point out where and when they did this!) This did entail removing and replacing the two (should it be more?) cross-straps.
Post_01.jpg
Sources are:-
Mr Tatlow Vol.4B Pages 290 et seq
Mr Banks .....website..... and scroll down.

Mr Banks suggests that there may well be some confusion of numbers about the quantity of Dia.40 vehicles surviving by 1947. I would be very interested if anybody knows any more. Mr Tatlow suggests that there 592 still surviving. If that is the case I wonder why none (except the ex-CL vehicles) were ever piped.
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nzpaul
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by nzpaul »

I don't think I've ever thought about how a wagon roof was built let alone tried to replicate it. That's a superb looking model.
I hope you've found a solution to the sticking points on the inspection saloon, another fascinating project, look forward to seeing the end result.

Paul
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by Hatfield Shed »

drmditch wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:01 pm ...Mr Banks suggests that there may well be some confusion of numbers about the quantity of Dia.40 vehicles surviving by 1947. I would be very interested if anybody knows any more. Mr Tatlow suggests that there were 592 still surviving. If that is the case I wonder why none (except the ex-CL vehicles) were ever piped.
I would suggest the general pre-war move to a minimum 10' wb for fitted wagons, and secondarily probably falling demand for cattle movement by rail.
jwealleans
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by jwealleans »

I cannot remember having seen this done before.
Geoff Kent, I think and there's also a section in 'The Art of Weathering' showing how to do it but using a technique i think is better suited to 7mm. I've never tried it.
drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by drmditch »

jwealleans wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:25 pm
I cannot remember having seen this done before.
Geoff Kent, I think and there's also a section in 'The Art of Weathering' showing how to do it but using a technique i think is better suited to 7mm. I've never tried it.
Would that be Geoff Kent as in 'The 4mm Wagon' (in three parts.) and Martyn Welch 'The Art of Weathering' ?

Which of these would you recommend?

As it happens in my quite extensive railway library I have very few books on actual modelling.
(Whereas I tend to spend money at the 'drop of a hat' on railway history and engineering and vehicles and structures I cam model! For my chosen areas anyway. I'm not much concerned with post-1948 material.)

I think disposable income may be scarce this winter. Have just had to have new spectacles, need quite a bit of dentistry, and need to allow for Accurascale chaldron wagons. (For which I need to build a colliery yard in the corner allocated for it!)
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by jwealleans »

I shouldn't like to choose which to recommend - both (all 4, in fact) are indispensable in my view.
drmditch
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by drmditch »

Technical issues (and other problems mentioned above) with my NER Dia.85 'Officer's Saloon' have slowed me down.
Way back in the summer, I decided to remove the moulded plastic footboards and to replace them in brass. A bit later this seemed like a 'step too far'.
My metal working skills need improvement, and I need to keep telling myself to create adequate jigs and not to rush.
At length I have made some progress, and (so far) resisted throwing the entire thing away.

The picture below shows progress (although the footboards are not yet finally fastened and still show some waves!
Post_16.jpg
The springs were soldered up from brass strip. The jig did nearly burn out, but survived just long enough to make all six of them.
The NER had a strange arrangement for the centre axle of hooks from which the springs were suspended with a 'swing link'. Fortunately this appears to be the same as for ordinary six wheel coaches, so there are more photographs available. My copper ones look more crude in the picture than they are on the model.

The upper and lower footboards are thin section brass and distort easily. My favourite and very elderly 25w Weller soldering iron has nearly destroyed it's bit - and I haven't managed to find a replacement yet.

Now I'm going to wait and calm down and build new jigs before starting the other side footboards.

The other disheartening problem was that the roof (with which I was quite pleased) somehow separated into it's two component halves, and doesn't seem to go back together properly. It may need to be completely replaced.

I'm not going to get mentally stuck this time, and I think a few simpler projects are needed to maintain morale!
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kimballthurlow
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by kimballthurlow »

drmditch wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:59 pm .. The upper and lower footboards are thin section brass and distort easily. My favourite and very elderly 25w Weller soldering iron has nearly destroyed it's bit - and I haven't managed to find a replacement yet.
...
Hi drm,

You have done a nice job on the footboard attachments pinned to the solebar.
Is it possible to use an angle section brass for the boards?
That might help keep themm straight.

Kimball
jwealleans
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by jwealleans »

Agreed. i use 3 x 1 mm brass angle for all the footboards on brake vans as the plastic ones won't stand up to travel and exhibition use.

You can still bend them (see below) but they are much more robust. I built this last week.

Image
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kimballthurlow
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Re: Make do and Mend - Inspecting on Six Wheels

Post by kimballthurlow »

Hi Jonathon
Very nice GN brake van.
Is that D&S?
I have one made by Marklin about 1910 (O gauge) very close in detail.
I also purchased a couple in laser-cut wood (OO 3Dimension?) but have not finished them.

Kimball
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