1H was 2E wrote:So it's only petrol tankers that need, for instance, barrier wagons; the Eccles collision involved gas oil/diesel/heavy oil tankers, explaining the lack of barrier wagons.
Not quite, it depends on period. Eccles was 1984, and by then even class A trains had been running without barriers for some years
As an aside, model tank wagons produced commercially seem to be finished in silver rather than grey.
Again it depends on period. At some point, silver (sometimes referred to as 'silverette') was replaced by dove grey.
This thread goes back to almost pre-historic times but I've just come across it in my hunt for likely ways oil/flammable 4 wheel tank cars would be included in goods formations during the groupling, my period of modelling. More particularly my hunt start as I was trying to identify the correct headlamp codes for trains comprising (flammable) liquid tankers.
In an earlier thread I started to find this out it was pointed out that 'block' tank trains didn't come into use (I presume 'regular') until about/after 1939 and before then, more often than not the odd single/few 4 wheel tank wagon could just appear in a mixed freight, its appearance being more determined by whether it was fitted or not. I have only seen one photograph of such a situation and even Geoff Goslin's 'Goods Traffic of the LNER' (which arrived in the post today) doesn't have any photos of either 'block' trains of 4 wheel tankers or even singles or a small number mixed in with other types of wagons - in the grouping period. (There are 3 photos - p43 - but this is dated 1961 & p81 dated 1962, plus another p94 - obviously grouping but not dated, however these are milk empties.
Despite the RTR makers producing 4 wheel (oil/liquid/flammable) tank wagons on a regular basis, my curiosity is 'piqued' - were there ever many of them, or perhaps roughly what portion of wagons were liquid tankers (excluding milk/dairy). I have heard quite a lot about overnight milk tankers going to London so is it possible that more of these were in use than oil/flammable/liquid tankers?
What proportion of the grouping era wagon fleet were tanks for hydrocarbons as opposed to milk? It is a good question.
If we allow that in round numbers there were of the order of 1.3 million wagons in traffic in 1923, falling to about a million in 1947 as wagon capacity improvements were made - and those with a better set of figures do feel free to correct - I suspect the tanks in 1923 would be of the order of a couple of thousand only.
I am an enthusiastic examiner of photographs of the general scene, where since photography of the freight vehicles in traffic was relatively rare, we are largely reliant on what just happens to appear in the background of pictures taken to show other subjects. What this confirms very readily for the Big Four up to 1939 is that 'the wooden coal wagon' was everywhere and made up a good 60+%, of all wagons, and next the LMS and LNER group's general merchandise opens in the range 20-25%. Most of the remaining 10%ish are vans. Rarities: glimpses of a plate, a tube wagon, a twin bolster, a milk tank, a conflat, a low sided open. Tanks, just not to be seen; admittedly the rectangular type would 'disappear' very readily, but even so there cannot have been many about, another order of magnitude fewer than the rarities listed above.
Which leads to my guess of a couple of thousand in traffic at time of grouping. Just not going to see them, unless at a location somewhere on the routes between loading and off loading facilities.
Of course for those offering models the distinctly different outline and colourful livery potential are very attractive...
Thanks for your comments Hatfield Shed. I too, enjoy looking at old photos, particularly grouping era, but with (a) the lack of specialist book shops here in NZ (b) the chances of picking up any 2nd hand and (c) the weight of books I've bought - and consideration of excess luggage costs - as I have done so during my last 5 or 6 UK trips, means my 'library' is somewhat limited. However it has built up and the arrival yesterday of Goslin's 'Goods Traffic of the LNER was a welcome addition. Even if it didn't give me a lot of info on tank wagons the general contents are really interesting.
All that aside, for my modelling purposes in my period of interest it seems I may have a couple of options (1) place my tank wagons in singles or pairs throughout a mixed goods (unfitted) train or (2) go all radical and repaint my 10 or so (flammable) tank wagons to United Dairy or the like and run them as milk trains taking liquid calcium to the good folk of London.
I so hope that someone with good data now chips in, on the lines of 'between 1898 and 1922 over n thousand tank wagons - mainly for hydrocarbon traffic - were registered, and allowing for some wastage we can be confident that 95% were still available to be used for their intended loads in 1923, Thereafter typically several hundred were registered each year, etc..
Good thought Hatfield Shed. As you say, there may just be more to this story; even forgetting my modelling requirements, it's an interesting topic as it is. So looking forward to more background anyone can provide.
However 1000 tank wagons (+/-) doesn't sound like that many over the 24 year period you quote which is a very small percentage of the 273,050 goods vehicles Geoff Goslin quotes in his preface (to Goods Traffic of the LNER) that LNER 'possessed', admittedly at the end of 1930.
Tidying up some files recently I came across an article from the GERS about rolling stock,
and the summary of wagon types from 1862-1910 actually shows no tank wagons at all.
What surprised me was that the GER did not have its own coal wagons, rather it relied on
PO wagons, It did however have a number of Loco Coal wagons, and about the same
number of cattle wagons.However, they Cattle wagons had declined in the period.
Finally of value is the fact that the GER had very few covered vans, finding open wagons
with securely roped tarpaulin sufficient.
Although not a direct answer to the question it does put an interesting perspective on how
we view goods trains.
My view is that very little changed on the GE section of the LNER into the 1930's, it certainly didn't on the GNR.
Graeme Leary wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:00 pm
Good thought Hatfield Shed. As you say, there may just be more to this story; even forgetting my modelling requirements, it's an interesting topic as it is. So looking forward to more background anyone can provide.
However 1000 tank wagons (+/-) doesn't sound like that many over the 24 year period you quote which is a very small percentage of the 273,050 goods vehicles Geoff Goslin quotes in his preface (to Goods Traffic of the LNER) that LNER 'possessed', admittedly at the end of 1930.
The estimation method I have used is based around available photos of the general scene, so hopefully a fairly random sampling, but only of the locations which the majority of then active photographers were visiting. For all the shortcomings implied by this, it should nevertheless represent those photographed locations, and if what is modelled corresponds to those types of locations then all is well. (I expect a very different result would be obtained if some photos of oil extraction, refinery and petroleum product distribution locations or the immediate hinterland of such locations were readily available!)
Now, the numbers. The numbers of wagons which the railway companies and private owners operated are reasonably well known, and the commonest items, the wooden coal wagon, the general merchandise opens, general merchandise vans show up in just proportion, and as expected completely dominate what is seen. The next tier down in volume of wagons in traffic, are the more specialised wagons, mainly built by the railway companies. These are exceedingly scarce in photos, as expected. So far not a cylindrical tank wagon has been spotted: that suggests to me that their numbers in traffic 'out on the national network' was an order of magnitude lower than the railway company's specialised wagons.
This may of course grossly underestimate the numbers constructed and working, because they were 'hidden away' for the most part in very specific locations. But it probably does give a realistic idea of what was seen in general traffic.
While the methodology might be a little suspect, I think your numbers will be quite close.
Even in the 1920s most petrol was still being bought from the chemist in 1/2 or 1 gallon tin cans.
Even at production centres the number of tank wagons would seem to be small.
http://www.scottishshale.co.uk/GazWorks ... Intro.html
shows a picture of the Niddry Caste oil works. There are relatively few wagons and not all are tank wagons. No date is given and I would guess this is back in pre-grouping days based on the style of the postcard. For anyone interested it is probably worth having a good rummage around the site for more information. Many of the early works went bankrupt or closed in the 1880s and 1890s but production did continue until the mid 1900s.
Tatlow shows very few oil tankers, although the GNR had 3 diagrams.
as has been mentioned, many oil tankers were privately owned, because most petrol products
were retailed in cans,and indeed the AA and RAC carried cans for their members who ran out
Proper petrol stations were really a 1920's invention in terms of widespread placement, so
why would you need wagon trains to fulfill demand.
More prevalent into the 1930's would still be gas plant wagons, ie coke, coal tar etc.
exile wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:28 pm
While the methodology might be a little suspect...
Oh it certainly is! But 'needs must when the devil drives' and all that. Superior data from anyone able to do more rigorous research into numbers built and placed in traffic, and principal routes would be exceedingly welcome.
Surprisingly, no mention has been made of the two "reference" books on the subject: 1 - Oil on the Rails by Alan Coppin published by the HMRS (still available here https://hmrs.org.uk/oil-on-the-rails-150219.html for the princely sum of £6; and 2 - Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain by Richard Tourret, now out of print but still available secondhand from the usual sources at considerably more than £6! https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listi ... 287&sr=8-2.
Coppin gives more detail on the distribution of products, one or two tanks being forwarded from a (usually) coastal refinery/storage facility to a local distribution depot. Details of these are scarce, but generally there would be standage for a few rail tanks, storage tanks and facilities for loading road tankers. Thus, the rail tanks were most likely were delivered by pickup goods trains.
Block trains were instigated by the Petroleum Board in 1939 at the outbreak of WW2, import of oil products was to west coast refineries to avoid air raids on installations on the east coast.
Going 'sideways' on this topic I decided to have a look at the Dairy/Milk aspect of 4 wheel tank wagons and found a forum thread started by 'sniffer' on 5 September, 2014 (LNER Milk Tankers).
There were some very interesting comments on the historical aspect of dairy/milk transport by 'Greedy Boards' and 'Cutter' and as it seems from earlier comments on this thread there were comparatively few flammable liquid tank wagons (as a percentage of the total number of all goods wagons) would there have been a greater number of tank wagons used for milk/dairy transport? The regularity of milk trains to London (and the actual volume of milk transported) would imply there could have been once the use of milk churns had been 'phased out' or discontinued.. (Also a good shot of Jonathon's dairy tank wagons)
In the LNER context it seems to me that Express Dairies and United Dairies were the only 2 companies of any consequence to consider should I decide to 'convert' my flammable liquid tankers to dairy (if they are of the same or very similar diagram).
This thread and some other research also indicates 6 wheel dairy tank wagons were in use - were there more of these than 4 wheel wagons, or were they applicable more to one company (eg' LNER,LMS,GWR,SR; dairy company eg United or Express or maybe the wagon manufacturing company). Unless I've missed it, the 2 LNER Wagons books by Peter Tatlow I have ('A Pictorial Record of LNER Wagons' and 'LNER Wagons Vol Two') do not devote any info on this particular aspect.
Any further comments on the above queries would be of interest whether or not I go ahead and change the use of the 4 wheel tank (oil/petrol) wagons I have.
I agree that tankers in the pre 1940s would have been few and far between, as already explained.
Volume 3 of Bill Hudsons' "Private Owner Wagons" (OPC) lists 4 cylindrical tankers within a listing of 109 wagons.
These are Plates 24 (bitumen emulsion for roadwork), 34 (chemical by-products from coal), 93 (Royal Daylight oil/petroleum) and 95 (chemical by-products from coal).
While these Plates are probably for single builds, Plate 34 indicates 4 tankers were built with the name IZAL (1913-1915).
Another tanker is shown incomplete in Plate 19, with the lettering British Dyes Ltd Huddersfield (1913)
I would also consider it likely that food grade carriage in tanks might ostensibly include acetic acid (vinegar) and vegetable by-products such as oils, and blacks used in industrial colouring processes. I know that in the USA railway tank carriage was provided for acetic acid and wine. But there too, these wagons would have been few by comparison.
Graeme Leary wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:31 pm
...In the LNER context it seems to me that Express Dairies and United Dairies were the only 2 companies of any consequence to consider should I decide to 'convert' my flammable liquid tankers to dairy (if they are of the same or very similar diagram).
This thread and some other research also indicates 6 wheel dairy tank wagons were in use - were there more of these than 4 wheel wagons, or were they applicable more to one company (eg' LNER,LMS,GWR,SR; dairy company eg United or Express or maybe the wagon manufacturing company)...
When the railway companies began to work with the major dairy processing concerns to develop bulk movement of milk, a four wheel tanker was employed and quite quickly found to become rather lively at express freight speeds. The six wheel design running gear was introduced to solve this problem and was generally adopted. All the Big Four operated this traffic, and it appears to be 'uniform', I would suspect some modernisation coordination from the Ministry of Agriculture. The lines serving the West side of the country must have had the higher volume of this traffic as there was (and is) a much larger proportion of pastoral farming to the West. (Since the railway companies owned the running gear and the Dairies the tanks, I would imagine the 4W running gear was 'repurposed' by the owning railway as the 6W running gear was built to take the existing tanks.)
