GCR tenders

[scratcher]

I was under the impression that the GCR 4000g tender was fitted across all of the Robinson classes, with some minor modifications latterly (eg, to match up with locomotives with wider front footplates, and to extend the steel side coal plates forwards). I have the Bachmann D11/1 "Marne", the J11 and O4 (all LNER livery), and the tenders are all different but vary more than I expected. Anybody have any insight into Bachmann's choice of tenders? (The pictures include BR examples but my LNER ones are the same).

d11.jpg (6.36 KiB) Viewed 6751 times

j11.jpg (7.38 KiB) Viewed 6751 times

o4.jpg (5.79 KiB) Viewed 6751 times

[earlswood nob]

G'day all

The tenders look like:

D11 GCR tender with water pick up

J11 GCR tender without water pick up

O4 ROD tender

Earlswood nob

[Atlantic 3279]

The top one, quite correctly I believe, is one of the final design variants, with self trimming bunker and marginally wider tank. If you really want to get an idea of the variations on the not-at-all-standard 4000 gal GCR tender then consult photographs and drawings in both volumes of E. Johnson's book on the Locos of the GCR, taking note of things such as the change to the length of the coping plates on new tenders around the time of the Great War regardless of whether the bunkers were standard type or self trimming. Watch out for confusions with extremely similar-looking 3250 gal tenders and with earlier coal-railed examples later fitted with plates. I think some of Pollitt's tenders, built without coping plates or rails later gained reasonably shapely coping plates too, adding to the confusion, but many of the upgraded Pollitt tenders were obvious by nature of the crude square-ended coping plates fitted.

[Woodcock29]

Further to the comments from Atlantic:

The tender in the top photo is the 4000 gallon self trimming type but as built by the LNER for attachment to the D11/2s built for Scotland. Therefore although it appears to have water pickup - it has the correct pickup box cover arrangement with the water filler at the rear, it is actually not fitted with a water pickup as it doesn't have the operating wheel on the top right front of the tender as these locos were not so fitted. If you compare this against the tender with Marne you should note that Marne's green LNER tender correctly has the water pickup operating wheel on the top right front. The self trimming tenders are easily identified by the large tool box on the top of the front. Note to my knowledge self trimming tenders were only ever fitted to D11s and B3 and B7 4-6-0s - but they often got swapped around on these classes with the non self trimming types.

As indicated above the middle one is the 4000 gallon tender after water pickup has been removed and is fitted to the Bachmann J11s in BR livery. The tender with the LNER version has water pickup. These tenders are the best of the models by Bachmann as they have the brake shoes in line with the wheels - well for 16.5mm gauge at least. The others are all pretty good though.

The bottom tender appears similar to the 4000 gallon type built for the ROD engines and has no provision for water pickup and in my view is wrong for the pre-war LNER version of the Bachmann O4/1 but probably ok for BR versions. Bachmann presumably produced a tender with no water pickup as they would have scanned the preserved 63601(the model of which is shown in the photo) which is coupled to Tender No 6202 which was originally fitted to O4/1 LNER No 6202 and was originally fitted with water pickup but that would have been removed some time after 1946. At which time it appears the box arrangement covering the water filler and pickup apparatus was fully removed and the rear coal plate moved back like those on an ROD built tender. To all intensive purposes this tender represents one of those built for the ROD.

Note GC tenders did get swapped around an enormous amount and full data covering all the GC tenders swaps is included in Yeadon’s Register of LNER Locomotives Appendix 2 Locomotive Tender Numbering – A General Survey and the Great Central Group Tender Allocation . (Its a great pity there is no Appendix 3 covering the GN tenders!)

Also take note of Atlantic's comments in respect to coping plate length, coal rails and plated over coal rails as well as the smaller 3250 gallon tenders which were lower and narrower- for the unwary it can be a minefield. The Johnson books are also a good reference - I have Vol 2 which gives better coverage to the later locos and also in LNER and BR periods whereas I think Vol 1 is mainly earlier material covering the earlier locos. The best advice is to have a photo of an actual loco you want to model at the date you wish to model it as well as copy of the Yeadon Register cited above plus the relevant Yeadon Vol covering the class you are modelling as they have a great selection of quality photos (Book Law at Nottingham have a lot of these at half price currently). Often though it is difficult to see some of the tender details as photos are often 3/4 views from the front of the loco.

I hope this all makes sense.

Woodcock29

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all

Thanks Woodcock for the info on D11 tenders. I have often wondered about the D11/2 tenders as I haven't found a decent pic.

Earlswood nob

[scratcher]

Thanks Atlantic, earleswood nob and Woodcock, that explains things. I was not aware of the self-trimming variation.

Both Marne and my LNER J11 have the operating wheel for the water pickup.

My reason for asking is that I have a part-built Keyser B2 Sir Sam Fay kit with an incomplete tender, so I was going to fit it with a Bachmann one. It sounds like the J11 tender is the one to use.

Thanks again.

[Woodcock29]

Yes the LNER J11 tender should do just fine. Good luck in getting a spare one though. I wish had one when I built my Ks B2 City of Lincoln back in 1987!

I actually purchased 4 spare Bachmann O4 tenders through a mate some time ago for similar purposes after some modification - unfortunately they only sent us the tops - we have been unable to get any underframes yet! But my mate will try again. I have a plan B if that fails - fret out the frames from brass and use Gibson J11 axle boxes - I have two sets in stock as the initial back up, and fit Comet 6'6" + 6'6" tender chassis. Another alternative to fretting out the frames is to get another mate to etch the frames for us but that will cost a lot more I reckon.

I actually fitted both my Bachmann LNER J11s with the 3250 gallon tenders. I made the 3250 gallon bodies by cutting up two of the spare O4 tender bodies and fitting water pickup to them - using Gibson ships wheels - even though they have 2 spokes too many and using Atlantic's water pickup/filler box resin castings. I actually fitted plated over coal rails to these tenders using Millholme GC coal rail frets from the spares box. I wasn't prepared to cut up the superb J11 tender bodies I'll use them on my B8 and B9. I wrote this up in the GCRS Journal Forward.

The B8 will be made using custom etches I've had done for the chassis, footplate, splashers, cab and front frame extensions married to a Ks B2 boiler and firebox I got for a song.

The B9 will use Mike Edge etches for the loco with a Millholme B5 boiler I got also for a song.

Woodcock29

[mossie]

Hi Woodcock29

I have a Bachmann 04 tender bottom spare. If you are interested PM me and I can send you some pictures. I also have the metal coal load as well.

Regards

[earlswood nob]

G'day all

I have found this thread very informative.

I built an O4/7 many years ago from a Little Engines kit. I gave it a random number of an O4/7 rebuild which was indicated in a Ian Allan spotters book and just disregarded the initial 6, to give a later LNER number.

I recently found that this number was one of the later rebuilds and would not fit with my largely earlier locos. I therefore decided to renumber it and looking through Yeadon I found a note that no O4/7s ran with water pick up equipment. The LE tender has the larger dome cover as in the J11 illustrated above. I am wondering if the O4/7s which were rebuilds of O4/1s had similar tender tops, and not the ROD type, that is illustrated in the above O4/3?

When I built the model about 30 years ago, I thought that any O4/7 number was OK. Now since joining this forum, I have developed a desire for accuracy.

Earlswood nob

[1H was 2E]

May I point out that the Yeadon's Register series includes "Appendix Two - LOCOMOTIVE TENDER NUMBERING A General Survey & The Great Central |Group Tender Allocation" gives, for the GC, not only which individual tender ran with which loco., but also a description of every tender type from MS&L Sacre days on.

I did ask the Book Law man what was happening about the other constituents' books but was told that the book I've mentioned would not be troubling the best selling lists. This probably explained why I was able to purchase a new copy at an Ian Allan bookshop for a fiver...

It wouldn't be fair (apart from copyright considerations) to make lengthy quotes from the book - but it's well worth buying. It has lots of (to me at least) interesting stuff - the 'Pug' coal wagons, tenders used by service departments etc..

I am constantly staggered by how Mr Yeadon managed to record so much detail. Wish he hadn't lost interest in the LNWR though...

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all

Thanks 1Hwas2E, I haven't got the Yeadon Appendix about tenders. I shall have to seek one out, for I seem to need more and more information.

It's amazing the information supplied by Yeadon's registers. Last night, I discovered that one of the O4/4 rebuilds was reboilered with a O1 boiler. It doesn't sound much, but it means the smokebox door was different.

Earlswood nob

[PGBerrie]

I have a question about tender in the second picture.

I've finally got around to building my N gauge Foxhunter O4 kit - I'm trying to make an O4/7 and have Ardsley's 63750 in mind. The kit allows the ROD or standard tender with water scoop to be made, but the O4/7 tenders had no water pick-up. I have an Isinglass drawing of the O4/8 which has such a tender, but unlike the J11 tender in the picture on this thread, it shows no coal guard.

Looking at pictures of BR O4/7s in the Green Bible and on Internet, some seem to have their coal piled high at the front, while on others the coal spreads right to the back. I have no access to the Yeadon books - so cannot find what tender was used on 63750 e.g. between 1958 and 1961 (the date of my photo). Can anyone help?

Peter

[Woodcock29]

Peter
According to Yeadon Vol 24B 63750 (originally 6278) was never an O4/7. It was however, rebuilt to an O4/8 in Oct 1952.

I wonder if you mean 63705? There is a photo of this engine in RCTS. 63705 was originally No 6320. It appears to have been an ROD version. It was rebuilt to O4/5 in 1939, to O4/7 in 1948 and finally O4/8 in 1958.

However, it appears neither of these were ever shedded at Ardsley.

So I'm a bit confused by what loco and version you're looking at?
Andrew

[PGBerrie]

Sorry, slip of the fingers: 63570.

Peter

[Woodcock29]

That makes sense Peter. Formerly 6223, 63570 had tender 6198 from 6/43 to scrapping in 12/61. The engine was rebuilt to O4/7 in 11/40 and remained in that form until scrapped in 12/61. It was shedded at Ardsley from 27/9/53 until withdrawal.

Tender 6198 would have been paired with O4/1 6198 when built and remained with 6198 to 3/29 when it moved to Q4 6175 until it moved to 6223. It was what would generally be known as a 'standard' 4000 gallon Robinson GC tender. Although 'standard' is a bit misleading as there were a range of variations. Tender 6198 would have been built with water pickup (but when this was removed is unknown) and vacuum brake.

There is a photo in Yeadon 24B as 3570 on 4/4/48 at Tuxford but it's the wrong side to see whether the tender has the 'ships wheel' for operating water pick up at that time.

I imagine it would have had a rear coal plate behind the coal space in the tender.

Hope this helps.

Andrew