Hornby Pullman coach variations

[Graeme Leary]

I have just bought through a contact 3 brand new Hornby Pullman coaches to run with an existing 3 I already have, which are (basic details off the boxes): -R4480 'Minerva'; R4422 '35' and R4423 'Aurelia'. These all have quite detailed roof tops (and are painted cream) with a moulded central section and what are probably air vents, and also a vertically 'panelled' effect on the brown section of the coach sides. (These 3 coaches were purchased probably 3 - years ago during a UK visit).
The 3 new ones are:- R4481 'No 60'; R4484 'No 64' and R4483 'Onyx' and only R4481 'No 60' matches the first 3 listed. R4484 'No 64' and R4423 'Onyx' have much less roof detail (ie no moulded central section or the prominent 'vents') and the roofs are painted grey, not cream as the others. There is also no vertical panelled detail effect on the brown coach sides.
My first reaction was that maybe these are 'Railroad' offerings but the boxes do not indicate this.
Has anybody else come across these variations, and were there these differences in actual Pullman coaches?
Many thanks.
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[mick b]

Flush sided Pullmans I believe are post war Southern region ?
The only Pullmans with LNER Connections are the latest Hornby Type K and very good they are as well. Hattons may have them in the current sale still. The basic Railroad versions are also LNER variations.
Pullmans are a minefield and I stand to be corrected on above info.

[65447]

See also: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5306

[Hatfield Shed]

...were there these differences in actual Pullman coaches?...

Reference to the linked thread above, and the SEMG link within that, will go a long way to explain.

Hornby's Pullman car models are accurate representations of specific cars to the best of available knowledge, the first release of any particular type a correct body form and identity combination. Hornby went on to apply a name or number of a very similar car when issuing further versions from the same moulding tools, in usual model company fashion.

The most recent Pullman car introductions from Hornby are all-steel K type cars built for the newly branded Queen of Scots Pullman service on the LNER. The prototypes were of all steel monocoque construction with no underframe trusses, and when introduced in 1928 immediately distinctively different from the wooden bodied Pullman cars that had run in the UK up to that time. Because these 29 all-steel cars were built in a single production run I suspect that they will be externally accurate in form for any of the appropriate names and numbers while in service on the LNER, and then subsequently on ER operations.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks for comments and in particular the link provided by 65447. The next question relative to all this is the livery used by LNER on such Pullman expresses as 'Queen of Scots' and 'Yorkshire Pullman'. I have some notes from info gleaned from somewhere to say these 2 'Named Trains' used Pullmans but I cannot locate any definitive info on the livery. The Pullman coaches I do have are all the RTR Hornbys done in, what I understand to be GWR livery of Brown and Cream which instinct tells me would not have been that used by LNER. Any ideas please.
(The other possibility, to save me having to repaint these otherwise well presented Hornby Pullmans, is that this cream and brown - GWR???? - livery was in fact used on one/some LNER expresses so another set of loco and coach roof boards would solve the problem.
Graeme

[mick b]

As far as know all Pullmans prewar were Choc and cream nothing to do with GWR.

[teaky]

Mick is correct Graeme. Unless you are modelling post-war NAAFI cars then you can assume that all LNER Pullman cars were in the standard Pullman livery of umber and cream as modelled by Hornby. It is a little ironic that this is most similar to the GWR livery since the GWR had fewer Pullman's on their lines than the other big four companies.

The latest Hornby all-steel K type cars are what you need to model the Queen Of Scots. However, some of the other cars released by Hornby (matchboard sided K-type and 12-wheel cars) can be renumbered or renamed to recreate other trains which ran on the LNER. It all depends on your chosen time period. It is a minefield though. Cars that originally had matchboard sides were plated over, cars were rebuilt with different numbers of seats or even changed into brakes. Cars were moved between the LNER to SR and elsewhere at various times. Over recent years Hornby have also released different versions of the same cars, so don't assume that a two cars with the same number are from the same era, double check the Hornby R numbers. (Leona is one example of this and can be found with matchboard or plated sides.)

I recommend you get hold of some of Antony Ford's Pullman Profile books.

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks Teaky; clarified a number of things but no luck tracking down Antony Ford's book you mention out here in NZ.

However will therefore assume that the 6 ('Match lining' with cream roofs) Hornby Cream/Umber Pullmans I have (R4480/Minerva 1st Class Kitchen; R4423/Aurelia 1st Class Kitchen; R4422/Car 35 3rd Class Parlour; R4146/ Car 171 3rd Class Kitchen; R4150 No 65 3rd Class Brake as well as R4143/Leona (you mention) are all correct for my proposed QOS express. I also have various transfers from Fox Transfers labelled 'Queen of Scots Cars' with pairs of names Lucille; Belinda; Thelma; Ursula; Agatha; Phyllis; Sheila and Nilar which I could change any of above Hornby names if incorrect, plus another series of transfers with Car No 'space' Second Class (and Third Class) and Third Class Car No 'space' with numbers to complete the 'spaces' (There is yet another group of name pairs I could use headed '1927 Pullman cars' including Cecilia; Chloria; Leona (already have);Zenobia; Niobe; Minvera (have); Marcelle, Sybil and Kathleen. (Another potential minefield I won't enter are the lavatory windows - I seem to recall mention of round/oval and square windows - but that would end up 'splitting hairs' I guess).
I also have 8 pairs of QOS coach roof name boards that I would like to use as well.

Finally (hopefully) the correct loco/s for the QOS. I have some very good black and white photos from Yeadons 'Named Trains on LNER lines Part 1' and Irwell Press's 'Book of the A3 Pacifics' (the class I want to use) which show (a) few with the QOS headboard in Grouping days - but which seem more prevalent after nationalization, not in my chosen era - and (b) only a very few with Cream/Umber coaches. A1/3 locos I have for this project are 4472/Flying Scotsman and 4476/Royal Lancer (both in LNER lined apple green with corridor tenders); 1470/Great Northern (LNER Green with GNR tender) and (a repainted) 95/Flamingo in Wartime Black with GNR tender, copied from photo on back (and inside on p48) of 'Book of the A3 Pacifics'. Would any of these be suitable for the QOS loco? However, I also have nameplates for Sandwich; Centenary; Humorist; Grand Parade and Brown Jack and would buy another RTR A1/3 (which would most likely be a LNER green with corridor and non-corridor tender and NOT a GNR tender) to use any of these alternative names that may be correct.

So to (hopefully) sum up:-
(1) Are my existing 6 coach names/numbers suitable (unchanged) for QOS express?
(2) If not what names should I change to?
(3) What would be names I should use for a further 2 or 3 coaches to build up to a longer rake?
(4) Are any of my existing A1/3s correct (allowing for the type of tenders with them and livery)?
(5) If not, of my 'spare' name plates what would be the most correct?
(6) Can I use my QOS roof nameboards on Cream/Umber coaches?

Many thanks, I trust you have a large pot of tea nearby.
Graeme.

[teaky]

Hi Graeme,

I obtained my Ford books via eBay. Keep your eyes peeled. Steve Banks' LNER Passenger Trains book also has a Pullman chapter.

There has been quite a bit of discussion of Hornby's Pullmans over on RMweb so a good search around on there should throw up a lot of the information you are looking for.

The QoS ran for quite some time in various configurations and used cars of assorted types. The Fox transfers probably cover the post war trains too. The pre war QoS was seven all-steel K-type cars (3rd brake, 3rd kitchen, 3rd parlour, 1st kitchen, 1st parlour, 3rd kitchen, 3rd brake). There were two sets of all-steel cars.

I'm not sure what you mean by "match lining". The earlier K-type and 12-wheel cars had matchboard panelling - thin vertical strips of wood forming the panelling running the length of the cars below the windows. The lining varied in the fine detail but was virtually the same whether applied to cars with matchboard panels or steel panels. Many of the K-type cars had their matchboarded sides plated over post-war in an attempt to make them look more like the all-steel K-types.

The cars you have are all SR Pullmans during the 1920s and 1930s (although Minerva and Leona did run on the LNER for a few months pending the delivery of the all-steel cars). I think these are all matchboard-sided? The only exception is 171 which may be plated. This was a post war rebuild of Pauline.

This doesn't mean you cannot adapt them to make up another of the LNER Pullman trains though. For example, the Yorkshire Pullman in 1939: 12-wheel 3rd brake no. 46, 1st kitchen Marcelle, 1st kitchen Kathleen, 3rd kitchen 81, 3rd parlour 83, 3rd kitchen 44, 12-wheel 1st brake Catania, 1st kitchen Sybil, all-steel 3rd parlour 84.

As far as locomotives are concerned I suggest you search this forum. I feel sure the information is on here and once you have narrowed it down one of the more knowledgeable chaps will confirm the locomotive and tender type.

Perhaps not the definitive answer you were hoping for but I hope this helps.

[mick b]

Good info , I didn't know that the 12 wheelers ran on ECML glad it got one via fleabay now !!

[teaky]

I like the look of the 12-wheelers and I fancied a mixed rake to go behind an Atlantic so I have cobbled together one 12-wheel brake, three K-types and three all-steel K-types. It is a bit like a chopped down Yorkshire Pullman but not really accurate. All but one of the cars will need to renumbered/renamed but that should be straightforward.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks very much Teaky - has certainly clarified most of what I hoped for. However, may apply a bit of artistic license to the makeup of the QoS express (or more likely, go down the Yorkshire Pullman track - no pun intended).
Sorry about 'match-lining' - I did mean matchboard, colonial's confusion!
Will also see if I can locate the book/s you refer to for any further info needed and will create a new topic on the forum regarding locos for both QoS and Yorkshire Pullman.
Regards
Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

After digesting all these posts (plus similar on my other forum posting to do with locos that hauled the QoS) I have decided to go down, not the Yorkshire Pullman route but the West Riding Limited so my queries regarding Pullman coach names are now directed to finding about them, names, numbers etc.
I thought I had this coach issue 'sussed', however in Cecil J. Allen's 'Titled Trains of Great Britain (6th edition) I find it stating that "a set of cars identical with that in use on the Coronation was built consisting of 'four articulated twins' ', something I'd not picked up elsewhere reading of the West Riding which has been mainly Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines Part 1', (plus a bit of googling for good measure). I'm sure this book is gospel regarding 'articulated twins' but I'd be grateful for any confirmation or other comments on this.
Many thanks.
Graeme

[teaky]

Don't confuse the West Riding Limited with the West Riding Pullman.

The West Riding Pullman was a Pullman train that was renamed as the Yorkshire Pullman in 1935.

The West Riding Limited was a streamlined train introduced in 1937 running to Leeds & Bradford. This consisted of four articulated twins in two tone blue. It was identical to the Coronation apart from that having the beaver tail observation car in summer.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks Teaky; you are making so many things a lot clearer to we antipodeans. Duly noted.