Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

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mick b
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Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by mick b » Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:03 pm

As mentioned before on previous locked thread, link below on stretching the cattle Van to a 10ft wheelbase and covering one side to mirror the Right side of the vehicle.



http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... try2371041

adrianbs
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by adrianbs » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:54 pm

Hi All I know I should not admit this but I also fancy trying out the conversion of the OR cattle, especially as I have already described in detail what needs to be done and also how some of it can be achieved. Nile has done a fair job but has not done all the mods I would do, especially correcting the running number which is from a LNER 7 Plank mineral (Perhaps the numbers on the cattle wagons were intended for new liveries on the OR POW but the Chinese got confused) The number series for 10'wb cattle wagons can include those originally 9'wb, either fitted or unfitted due to the rebuilding programme to 10'wb. Nos 195967-6466 and 196467-6666 cover the 1937 "as built" 10wb Wagons but these would NOT have been in the "Large letter" livery style.
To date it is not known how many were rebuilt to 10' wb before the livery style change. I have found no photos but it seems likely that most were, since the rebuilding program started in 1935 and most would have been completed before the 1937 cut off date. The number series covering the 9'wb wagons of both fitted and unfitted types is 150670-150969; 151670-151749; 153301-153570; 156124-156423 and 161779-161878 so you takes your chance on picking a number especially as 575 were converted to "Conflat V" and a few would have been scrapped.
Mods that Nile has not carried out are a) Moving the door bangers and plates to the centreline on both sides b) adding the reinforcing brackets to each end of the diagonal bracing c) moving the vee hangers outboard so that the outer faces are about 24.5mm d) changing the axleboxes to the LNER cast steel version e) altering the brakelever so that it is tight against the Vee hanger and has clutch detail on the top at that end f) positioning the Vacuum cylinder C/L to be 6mm from the X shaft C/L i.e. 2mm to the right of the middle of the solebar
I am not sure if he has altered the vacuum pipe at one end or what he will do about the steam heat pipe. It is not clear if the rebuilds should have the "Non common user" N on the corner pillars, Those built with 10'wb did in the official pictures and new solebar lettering will also be needed. Those contemplating the BR period should note that many wood underframe wagons had both solebars and headstocks in body colour and not black rather depending on where repainted or by who. I hope others will attempt the alterations although I think I will only do one instead of buying 2 or 3 had they needed no alteration or I might do one at 9'wb fitted as there may have been no unfitted wagons after 1938.

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S.A.C. Martin
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by S.A.C. Martin » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:26 pm

That is an excellent conversion all things considered and one I would look to emulate.

The bodyshell is a pretty thing on its own. Is there a proprietary 10ft wheelbase out there suitable to simply plonk it onto I wonder? Dapol used to do the chassis of their wagons separately and perhaps there's an opportunity here to remove the offending short chassis and fit a correct length one, for those of us minded to do these more in batches rather than one offs.

It does seem a shame to lose so much of the lovely detail though on the underside - hmm. Choices, choices.

I've bought two now, one in each livery, and it's a classic case of a well manufactured wagon, to very fine standards, but not actually accurate for the type it is purporting to be.

So for me, it has potential for modelling but isn't going to be winning awards for its design, sadly. They were close though and the execution of the mode, despite the inaccuracies, is still very nice.

adrianbs
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by adrianbs » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:55 pm

Hi S.A.C. Martin Apart from buying a Parkside kit which might just as well be built rather than used as a source of a chassis, I think the mods described are probably the best option. Should you model pre- 1937 the easier option might be to go for a 9'wb unfitted wagon. Remove all brakegear and just add a set of Morton 2 shoe brakes from an accessory pack such as Fourmost Models F. UO4 which will do 2 wagons. There are also etched brass sets available for those who like to go the extra mile. There will still be all the body mods and relettering to do so you only save about half the work unless you leave the model as a 9' wb fitted wagon. This means some surgery to the body, chassis and relettering and may not be suitable for the BR period unless evidence comes to light that they lasted into the early 1950s.

Baron von Shields
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Baron von Shields » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:06 pm

I am an avid follower of all Adrians posts, he has a flair for pursuing accuracy and an attention to detail that we should all aspire to.
May I suggest that his posts historical and future be combined into a separate thread which would form a centre of excellence and reference point.

G

mick b
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by mick b » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:15 pm

Adrian
Rarely get to shows , where can you by the ABS items and get a list of items nowadays, as no obvious website ?

65447
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by 65447 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:51 pm

mick b wrote:Adrian
Rarely get to shows , where can you by the ABS items and get a list of items nowadays, as no obvious website ?
Excellent question - looking forward to a straight answer, preferably including all those long-lost 7mm scale items...

60117 Bois Roussel

Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:53 pm

Just a note to endorse Adrian Swain's factual contribution - he is one of only three people who have looked into this.

My contribution concerns chronology and the fact that the LNER 9ft AVB cattle as-built was a flawed concept and ceased to exist quite rapidly, in the manner described by Adrian. The hardest question to answer is how many - if any - survived into BR days to be shopped and repainted. So far, there is no evidence of any.

Part of the equation is that BR eliminated LNER cattle trucks quickly and commissioned Big Four designs (by the LMS, GWR and SR - but not the LNER) in 1949-50, followed by the BR "standard" design that was based on the GWR's.

Photographs from the 1940s show that ex-LNER cattle trucks were rare, always with the LNER axle box, and where a judgement can be made, the 10ft version. The scene was swamped by highly durable LMS designs and, by BR days proper, you have to look hard to find a single ex-LNER one anywhere. And of course, no evidence at all of the as-built design of 1927. Like the dead parrot, it had ceased to be, it'd expired and joined the choir invisible.

- - - -

As regards rebuilding the Oxford Rail model, having been there and got the T-shirt, the Parkside kit will probably get you there faster. But demanding supply of parts from a certain manufacturer is flawed: this one has been off-scene for some time on health grounds, and there are alternatives. With modelling there are always alternatives.

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S.A.C. Martin
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by S.A.C. Martin » Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:50 am

Got to say, having done some research and actually found some photographs of similar wagons, I feel the BR strong emphasis on the criticism of Oxford Rail's model feels to me to be rather unfair.

It's clear they've only tooled up the one up model and to a very specific configuration. It's a 1927 built diagram 39 Cattle Wagon. I can't see that anyone has spotted that by removing the vacuum pipes, they can very easily make an unfitted version of the same wagon - which it virtually is by way of the missing vacuum cylinder...

For pre-war LNER this is an excellent model with a few things that could be changed. There's nothing else for us LNER modellers that touches this RTR - what, the Bachmann or Dapol shorty cattle wagons with NE on the side are good enough? I think not, given they're more expensive than Oxford Rails' model.

The criticism of applying the early BR livery to it would be fair, but how many manufacturers have tooled up a wagon and then applied spurious liveries to it in an effort to make lots of sales to collectors, etc? It's even as if it's a particularly unrealistic livery - on page 290 of An Illustrated History of LNER wagons there's a picture of a 9ft wheelbase cattle wagon in virtually the livery of the Oxford Rail model. Accepted, Oxford Rail's BR liveried model is in 1927 spec - but then Oxford never claimed they were going to tool up two versions of the same model, only that they were tooling a specific version of this wagon.

Rather think us LNER modellers are throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this one.

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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Hatfield Shed » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:25 pm

Criticism of this product stops at the point of realisation that it has one side completely wrong. It's a representation of nothing that ran, end of interest; I'll stick with my scratchbuilt example of what is a rare vehicle in the BR period. If OR venture a coach with assymetric sides in the same style the reaction will be interesting...

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S.A.C. Martin
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by S.A.C. Martin » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:10 pm

Hatfield Shed wrote:Criticism of this product stops at the point of realisation that it has one side completely wrong. It's a representation of nothing that ran, end of interest; I'll stick with my scratchbuilt example of what is a rare vehicle in the BR period. If OR venture a coach with assymetric sides in the same style the reaction will be interesting...
But we are modellers. Surely it's not outside of our skills to cut a slot between the planks in the offending side, add a couple of notches and fill in the slot and notches at the other end?

Are we really going to dismiss it out of hand? You can't see both sides of the van at the same time anyway.

31A
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by 31A » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:45 pm

[quote]It's clear they've only tooled up the one up model and to a very specific configuration. It's a 1927 built diagram 39 Cattle Wagon. I can't see that anyone has spotted that by removing the vacuum pipes, they can very easily make an unfitted version of the same wagon - which it virtually is by way of the missing vacuum cylinder...
/quote]

It would however take a bit more than just removing the brake pipe to turn the model into an unfitted wagon - the unfitted LNER cattle wagons had 2-shoe push rod Morton brake gear, rather than the clasp type with three V hangers represented by the model.

mick b
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by mick b » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:28 pm

S.A.C. Martin wrote:
Hatfield Shed wrote:Criticism of this product stops at the point of realisation that it has one side completely wrong. It's a representation of nothing that ran, end of interest; I'll stick with my scratchbuilt example of what is a rare vehicle in the BR period. If OR venture a coach with assymetric sides in the same style the reaction will be interesting...
But we are modellers. Surely it's not outside of our skills to cut a slot between the planks in the offending side, add a couple of notches and fill in the slot and notches at the other end?

Are we really going to dismiss it out of hand? You can't see both sides of the van at the same time anyway.

Modellers/modelling is not much to do it with it, it is simply not practical/viable to be worth bothering with .

The model is badly flawed to be almost a laughable effort ,why have the aggravation of correcting everything wrong, when you can build a very simple kit with all the necessary parts for the same price. If they get offloaded at a fiver each or less then they might be bothering with. You still have to add the cost of new brake parts, correct axle boxes, w irons etc to the Oxford price.

I can guarantee I can build the Parkside kit in far less time than mucking about with the one sided Oxford effort.

I don't think many people would considerer running the all same side wagons in a Train!! :shock:

Hatfield Shed
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Hatfield Shed » Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:01 pm

S.A.C. Martin wrote:...Are we really going to dismiss it out of hand? You can't see both sides of the van at the same time anyway.
I certainly have dismissed it, on the grounds of more trouble to correct than an existing solution. (I have 'history'. Of the last 15 years Chinese made product that had potential suitability for my modelling interest; didn't buy the Heljan Brush 4; didn't buy the Hornby Brush 2; didn't buy the Hornby Gresley gangwayed coaches; all of them for the same reason, manifest errors in appearance: which are more trouble to correct than the alternative of starting from an available superior solution. Progress is what I am looking for.)

No prejudice against OR, I'll buy the 6 plank open if it looks right when I have eyes on, may well be after their first two locos at some point to pillage for their potentially very useful drives; and hope to buy much else that they might produce as their subject choices so far look promising. At least it looks like I won't have to wait as long as I did for Heljan to make something of interest after their UK OO market entry (about nine years, class 15).

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S.A.C. Martin
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by S.A.C. Martin » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:07 pm

mick b wrote:Modellers/modelling is not much to do it with it, it is simply not practical/viable to be worth bothering with
I respectfully disagree Mick. I have been passed pics of someone's else's mods to this cattle wagon and to my mind, it has merit, particularly for a 10ft wheelbase conversion.
The model is badly flawed to be almost a laughable effort ,why have the aggravation of correcting everything wrong, when you can build a very simple kit with all the necessary parts for the same price. If they get offloaded at a fiver each or less then they might be bothering with.
Have you bought one to look over Mick, and compared it to drawings and photographs? I have and aside from the two major errors - the identical sides and the lack of a vacuum cylinder - the model seems to me to be measuring up very nicely to photographs and drawings of the diagram 39 Cattle Wagon. I cannot for the life of me see that there's anything wrong with the vast majority of the model.
You still have to add the cost of new brake parts, correct axle boxes, w irons etc to the Oxford price.
When you say that Mick, do you mean for a specific time in the history of this wagon? Because I have the NE liveried one in front of me, An Illustrated History of the LNER next to it, and I can say categorically that there's nothing wrong with the axle boxes, w irons or brake parts if we consider it is representing the wagon as first built in 1927. Pages 290-291 show several photographs and it looks pretty spot on.

On that basis there's nothing wrong with those details.

I can guarantee I can build the Parkside kit in far less time than mucking about with the one sided Oxford effort.
I don't think many people would considerer running the all same side wagons in a Train!! :shock:
I concede that point, but it's also true that with minimal effort this could be fixed. I reckon a small slit with a dremel and two notches cut out with a scalpel it could be done pretty easily.

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