Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

[60117 Bois Roussel]

Good thinking, Adrian,

The whole area needs resolving, but I fear that the answer may lie via a week at Kew!

To add an observation, I've been through the ghastly "Moving the Traffic - 8 - Livestock & Birds", by Evan Hughes-Green, looking for pictures with LNER-built cattle trucks. How many did I find? Think about the number of fingers on your hand, take away the thumb and pinky, and there's your answer. The picture at Pontypool Road is already on my w/s, in another picture you can see a fraction of an LNER truck in the corner; the third picture shows a sagging 10ft WB in a 1950s train (among 13 other designs). And that's it! To say that they were thin on the ground is quite an understatement; as shown before, other companies' cattle trucks dominated.

I've added a new topic on the w/s, "Cattle traffic" which says more about how cattle trucks were deployed.
http://www.steve-banks.org

[adrianbs]

Hi All --- OR have added a new version of the Cattle wagon to their list which is another variant of the BR livery. It appears that doing their own research, asking for assistance or even reading this forum topic must be anathema to them. Yet again they have used a running number which is not suitable for a cattle wagon. Indeed the number 151872 is actually in the 6 Plank LNER Dia 3 open wagon series. What a pity they are not using it on their 6 plank open instead of a fictitious number. Perhaps the language differences are a cause of some of their multitude of errors, Welsh to English to Chinese and back may have similar results to the old parlour game of Chinese whispers ??

[60117 Bois Roussel]

I have continued searching for pictures of the LNER 1927 9ft design cattle truck with AVB in BR days. I now have 37 pictures (as prints, negs and slides) of which 15 are BR-period. I can add more from books and the upshot is that:

LNER period - cattle trucks built by the LNER and their constituents can be found but they are massively outnumbered by other companies' trucks in common user service, mainly the LMS. In my latest find, a K3 is hauling the Up Scotch goods in the 1930s and behind the loco there is a single loaded cattle truck, and it's LMS (ex-LNWR).

BR period - LNER cattle trucks show extremely rarely, because they were being withdrawn, and there is no picture yet of a 1927 design on which the OR model is based, which marries with their elimination.

A particularly disappointing aspect of this is that since this was exposed, OR have launched a second BR period model of something that did not exist. Is it overstating the truth to say that OR is treating customers as gullible fools?

[D2100]

... Is it overstating the truth to say that OR is treating customers as gullible fools?

I don't think you can state that as a truth at all, overstated or otherwise. None of us truly knows their marketing philosophy. I do wonder myself though why it's so hard for you and Adrian to just accept that many buyers have lower aspirations.

[mick b]

... Is it overstating the truth to say that OR is treating customers as gullible fools?

I don't think you can state that as a truth at all, overstated or otherwise. None of us truly knows their marketing philosophy. I do wonder myself though why it's so hard for you and Adrian to just accept that many buyers have lower aspirations.

They are simply made to a budget , disappointing but what can anyone expect for £10 these days.

[60117 Bois Roussel]

It's useful to begin with OR's much-used headline of:

"In Pursuit of Excellence".

That claim is questionable and the marketing philosophy is self-evident. These models are NOT being made to a budget. Low price is a marketing strategy to gain market share. All this has already been made clear. High quality manufacturing is irrelevant if the product is designed badly.

Nobody has any qualms about individual people's choices: that quite simply is not to be criticised.

The bottom line is a basic one: why aim below the lowest common denominator with fictional models that have been exposed as false which could, instead, and just as easily, have been made to please everybody.

[mick b]

It's useful to begin with OR's much-used headline of:

"In Pursuit of Excellence".

That claim is questionable and the marketing philosophy is self-evident. These models are NOT being made to a budget. Low price is a marketing strategy to gain market share. All this has already been made clear. High quality manufacturing is irrelevant if the product is designed badly.

Nobody has any qualms about individual people's choices: that quite simply is not to be criticised.

The bottom line is a basic one: why aim below the lowest common denominator with fictional models that have been exposed as false which could, instead, and just as easily, have been made to please everybody.

The Bottom Line is in reality if people want to buy them they will. If they don't Oxford will give up and that at the end of the day is their problem. If they want to aim at the non self appointed expert market good luck to them if thats their business plan, its business they are there to make money nothing else.

Find them at a exhibition and you can tell me them direct.

[richard]

<Sigh>

I suggested a thread like this so that we could change the same old destructive arguments into constructive discussions. Instead we've got the same arguments surfacing.

I get complaints from one side about perceived insults but it takes two to argue. Everyone has expressed their opinions many times. Repeating them ad nauseum in an attempt to get the last word in is, quite frankly, a bit childish. I have much better things to do than sorting out this nonsense, and I would hope you do too. Take the higher ground, and just leave it.

As I said I have much better things to do than sort out these tangled threads of repeated arguments and perceived insults. Any more trouble and I will start issuing bans...


Richard

[Alpineman]

I am considering buying one (or more) of the OR vans in the 1930s livery. There has been discussion relating to how many (if any) survived into the BR period, but my question is how common the 9' wheelbase wagon was during the LNER period as it is modelled by OR (and ignoring the faults detailed on this thread)? In general would cattle vans be more frequently seen marshalled in block trains or independently in general goods trains please? Thanks.

Alpineman

[jwealleans]

Without wanting to be facetious, 'it depends'.

During the lifetime of the LNER cattle traffic started to decline, such that some of the earlier diagrams of cattle wagon were all converted to Conflats by the end of the 1930s. There was also a belated recognition that longer wheelbase vehicles were a better idea. So if you're in the vicinity of 1930, you can deploy the 9' wheelbase wagon with confidence; by 1939 they begin to be uncommon. Bear in mind the context given by Steve Banks earlier that between half and three quarters of the cattle wagon fleet were still pregrouping.

How they were run is dependent on your model. A large town with a large cattle market or fair might attract one or more specials. There was a minimum number of wagons above which a special train could be run. That might vary dependent on area. Small cattle sales or movements to and from individual farms might only require a handful of vehicles in which case they'd be worked in on a stopping goods service and probably worked out the same way.

[60117 Bois Roussel]

The question of how common was LNER D.39 (1927 design 9ft WB and AVB per the OR model) breaks into several areas and Jonathan hits several right notes. I've been working it up and it's a bit too complex to cover in relatively few words, but an outline does speak volumes:

1 - Where is your layout based? Geographical distribution and concentration of beef, dairy and sheep farming varied and beefstock needed the most replenishment because it was bred for slaughter. Dairy and sheep farming less so. Nearly all the traffic revolved around markets. If your layout is based on a town with a cattle market, there would have been regular traffic in and out. Country stations had much less. Sales/purchases were sent two ways, depending on quantity and distance:

- cattle special.
- normal goods traffic, ie. p/u goods feeding long distance through goods. Final delivery by p/u goods or passenger train to save time.
- isolated traffic for breeding.

2 - The distribution of LNER trucks also breaks into three parts. I've already put a slab of info on my w/s under "LNER cattle truck" and shall add more, a summary being:

Construction of D.39 by the LNER was really quite small, only 13.5% of newly built stock (where manually braked trucks dominated) and, in 1932, when construction was complete, it comprised a mere 5.5% of the LNER fleet. Which was 1 in 18. And it only lasted between 1928-37 as they were eliminated by conversion to flat trucks or 10ft WB.

More to the point, all company's trucks were mixed everywhere with LMS, LNER, GWR and SR trucks appearing everywhere and in this, more realistic context, D.39 comprised (and only for a few years) 1.9%. That was 1 in 52.

So if you are modelling the LNER in the 1930s, you need to get 51 other types, mostly non-LNER, to sit alongside a single D.39.

A picture that might make you take stock, so to speak, and I got recently shows the Up Scotch (fitted) goods on the ECML in the 1930s behind a K3. There's a cattle truck behind the tender. Is it LNER? It is a D.39, perhaps?? Nope, it's ex-LNWR with manual brake and through pipe.

[jwealleans]

Minor addendum to Steve's post above - GWR cattle vans were not Common User for a period before the second War, so during that period, unless there was a specific traffic from the GW area, they might be less likely to be seen (and when they were, might be in exclusive groups rather than mixed in with others). I forget the exact years, but I know I read up about it and decided not to have any GW ones for Grantham.

[mick b]

Get a couple of the new Hornby SR version !!

[jwealleans]

Intend to, Mick, just as soon as someone is selling them off cheap.

[mick b]

I think a lot of people will have the same idea , and in the future on other models tooo !!!