Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

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Nova
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Nova » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:51 am

drmditch wrote:My generation appears to have failed the world. I hope some of the younger people can sort it out now!


don't get your hopes up just yet :? as one of the younger people with a more middle left-wing viewpoint I look at the rising far-left with "safe spaces", "trigger warnings" and the willingness to not only censor individuals that don't fall in line, but also certain historical events that make them "uncomfortable" (examples include the holocaust), and dread to think what will happen when my generation replaces yours in positions of power.

sure it'll be more politically correct, but at what cost to freedom of speech.


I'll say no more on the matter, this is a forum for discussing matters relating to the LNER, not politics, let's try to keep it that way.
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947

Manxman1831
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Manxman1831 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:57 am

Dave S wrote:And I thought RMWeb was refered to as the "Dark side" :roll:
I had hoped that this thread would be a purely REBUILDING GUIDE for the Oxford Rail cattle wagons, and leaving it at that. Dave S is right, we are heading down the lines that are exactly why the other side is derided here.

If the self-made experts want to come up with a coherent REBUILDING GUIDE and post it here, great - pictures and descriptions most appreciated. If you want to pick holes in every little decision made by other people/organisations, then start a new thread, and do so in a mature manner without resorting to behaviour seen in school playgrounds or office boardrooms.
Brian

Anything weird or unusual will catch my interest, be it an express or locomotive

I'm also drawn to the commemorative, let's hope Bachmann will produce 6165 Valour.

adrianbs
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by adrianbs » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:16 pm

Hi All My comments on ORs products are aimed at informing modellers of the pitfalls of buying products which may look very attractive to the uninitiated but in fact may even be totally inaccurate no matter how nice they may look. Those who are not bothered about such matters are not forced to read my comments just as I am not forced to buy unsatisfactory products. Unfortunately the general public tends to use the terms burnt lime, lime, slaked lime, limestone, limewash and whitewash in rather indiscriminate ways.
Limestone is indeed calcium carbonate, the same as mineral chalk, CaCO3 (although chalk as used in schools on the blackboard, for those of us that old, is actually calcium sulphate CaSO4 ) Burnt lime is Calcium oxide CaO and as it's name implies is the result of burning limestone to remove CO2. This is ground down and mixed with water to become slaked lime Ca(OH)2 (CaO +H2O). Further dilution produces Limewash which is caustic (Alkaline) and can burn the skin if the solution is concentrated and was used for all sorts of purposes and in the case of Cattle trucks was used as a disinfectant but was also used in agricultural building for the same reason. Drying to a bright white was probably also useful to aid illumination. " Lime" can be made from ground down limestone or chalk and used to alter the acidity of soils but the true definition, chemically, of lime is CaO which would not normally be used on the soil but WAS used when burying diseased creatures to destroy all the infection. The terms limewash and whitewash were used interchangeably in the past but modern whitewash probably has no connection with the original material, being a modern synthetic paint.
Oxfords attempts are sadly not correct and even if the cattle trucks were old enough to have been limewashed, the entire interior up to the ceiling was liberally coated making it bright white, something that OR have not done, making the white marking outside look even less authentic. Since this would involve dismantling the model to paint the inside they would not have managed to save the modeller much work.

Nova
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Posts: 351
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Location: Scunthorpe, North Lincs

Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Nova » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:01 pm

adrianbs wrote: Limestone is indeed calcium carbonate, the same as mineral chalk, CaCO3 (although chalk as used in schools on the blackboard, for those of us that old, is actually calcium sulphate CaSO4 ) Burnt lime is Calcium oxide CaO and as it's name implies is the result of burning limestone to remove CO2. This is ground down and mixed with water to become slaked lime Ca(OH)2 (CaO +H2O). Further dilution produces Limewash which is caustic (Alkaline) and can burn the skin if the solution is concentrated and was used for all sorts of purposes and in the case of Cattle trucks was used as a disinfectant but was also used in agricultural building for the same reason. Drying to a bright white was probably also useful to aid illumination. " Lime" can be made from ground down limestone or chalk and used to alter the acidity of soils but the true definition, chemically, of lime is CaO which would not normally be used on the soil but WAS used when burying diseased creatures to destroy all the infection. The terms limewash and whitewash were used interchangeably in the past but modern whitewash probably has no connection with the original material, being a modern synthetic paint.
Oxfords attempts are sadly not correct and even if the cattle trucks were old enough to have been limewashed, the entire interior up to the ceiling was liberally coated making it bright white, something that OR have not done, making the white marking outside look even less authentic. Since this would involve dismantling the model to paint the inside they would not have managed to save the modeller much work.
I knew building a model railway encompasses a number of different subjects, history, geography, art, etc. but I never thought chemistry was one of them
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947

Pennine MC
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Pennine MC » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:09 pm

60117 Bois Roussel wrote:The same drum is not being beaten - we're talking about two new releases. And new errors. .
It is though, Steve. Yes, it's technically fresh errors you're drawing attention to (albeit in essence, it's just more of the same old stuff); but the underlying themes and the ascribing of certain motivations remain, in my view, unnecessary. It's inappropriate and sometimes borderline defamatory.

As I said, and as I've said in another thread - where is the equally constant commentary - together with the comments on motives - on the products of Hornby and Bachmann? Many of their wagons are equally flawed, so what's the difference here?
Last edited by Pennine MC on Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Pennine MC
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Pennine MC » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:10 pm

kimballthurlow wrote:.

I understand (from reading) that lime was used in cattle trucks, not only in the UK, but also in USA. I have seen videos of US trains in the 1950s, where lime has been caked on the first three or four laterals on the lower half of the stock wagon. And this was obviously after liberal application on the floor.
That's interesting; modellers being what they are, it may go some way to explain why UK modellers think its use lasted longer than it did.

John Palmer
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by John Palmer » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:00 pm

It would seem that use of lime wash in stock cars persisted in North America until the 1970's - I have encountered a photograph of Canadian Pacific cars coated in lime wash that's said to date from 1976.

Perhaps Americans are not too hot on their knowledge of lime chemistry: Crippen (a US citizen) made the mistake of slaking the lime in which he buried the torso found in his cellar, and thereby preserved it rather than destroying it, as had presumably been his intention.

Let me echo earlier posters by saying that I'm glad to see Adrian posting again.

adrianbs
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by adrianbs » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:11 pm

Hi All The evidence of limewash may have lasted slightly beyond 1924 on some older wagons but since both 9'wb and 10'wb LNER cattles were built after the use of limewash had been banned in 1927 they would almost certainly never have had it applied in the first place. As a further point of interest for those who have cattle docks on the layout the same applies. Until limewash was discontinued every part of the dock and some of the surrounding area was liberally coated and appears bright white in pictures. Quite how long it lasted and if it was deliberately removed perhaps someone may know.

mick b
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by mick b » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:37 pm

Well I have got one for a fiver and at that price its a bargain for all the minor faults. Speaking of which it took 30 mins to put the faults to right and now awaits painting. Pics later.

I have also now have two of the six plank wagons for £10 , even easier to put right (remove brake gear from one side) and both wagon types are nice mouldings.

As to lime wash that will make them even cheaper perhaps, in due course :D

adrianbs
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by adrianbs » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:10 pm

Hi All Mick b is being somewhat economical with the truth as removing the brake gear from one side of the OR 6 plank will NOT make it accurate !! Either he has done rather more than that or the wagon is still almost as faulty as when he bought it.

mick b
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by mick b » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:44 pm

Adrian give up please, no more !! . For £5 it will do me.

Pennine MC
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Pennine MC » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:49 pm

adrianbs wrote:Hi All Mick b is being somewhat economical with the truth ...
Y'see, this continually provocative language is what irks me. Mick will no doubt answer for himself but this reads like an accusation of deliberately withholding material information. I doubt that's the case and I trust an apology will follow in due course.

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Blink Bonny
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by Blink Bonny » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:06 pm

Gentleman please!

Can we play nicely here?
If I ain't here, I'm in Bilston, scoffing decent chips at last!!!!

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richard
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by richard » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:19 pm

Adrian: Right and constructive comments are fine - and I agree that a lot of the modelling press seem to have the same review for every model from a particular manufacturer. "It is a Graham Farish model: Okay let's use the Graham Farish review template". An exaggeration perhaps but I think we agree on the general gist.

The problem is the relentlessness. The repetitiveness and hyperbole.
As an example, here's a comment from Bois: "I can only shake my head with disbelief at the cavalier practices being employed by Oxford Fail.". Which quite frankly is not called for. Over the top and the "Oxford Fail" is childish.

Can we try something new? When you do a review, don't repeat yourself or get drawn into arguments and trying to be the last one to say something. Skip the hyperbole. Perhaps write a draft and wait a day before posting - that's always good for "angry emails", should work with forum posts.
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia

mick b
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Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.

Post by mick b » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:45 am

As mentioned a very simple conversion of the planking to the Cattle Wagon. It will get a respray and lettering it can stay as a 9ft wheelbase version. Bought for a bargain price and good enough for my requirements.
IMG_1917.JPG
IMG_1918.JPG

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