Coach Roof Colours (West Riding Pullman)

[Graeme Leary]

Hopefully last query regarding my West Riding Pullman express project (but don't put money on it!).

I am adapting (renames/numbers etc) 8 Hornby Pullman coaches I have and about to fix WRP express name boards (Fox's transfers on stainless steel backing) to coach roofs. However I seem to recall reading somewhere that LNER Pullman (all??) coach roofs were painted a mid-dark grey, not the cream that my Hornby models are (and I think the originals of these were in a more Southern area livery). Black and white photos I have of LNER expresses suggest most were darker than cream/umber.

Is anybody able to clear this up for me and if should be a 'grey' colour suggest a Humbrol or Tamiya number (the 2 brands readily available here) that would be appropriate.

Thanks again.
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[Kestrel]

As far as roofs are concerned, they were originally painted white then silver from about 1950. These light colours faded to "exhaust smoke" grey in service and this colouration would persist until the next painting at overhaul. I'm led to believe that, although the sides of Pullman cars were regularly washed, the roofs weren't.
Craig.

[2512silverfox]

I would agree with that last statement. White (or at least off white) until 1948 ish then silver (aluminium). All of which weathered quite rapidy since only sides were cleaned regularly. Never use pure white on roofs, or even in lettering, it is far too stark in model terms.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks Kestrel and Silver Fox - one less job to do - hurrah!
Graeme

[billbedford]

Even the white paint used on coach roofs was really a pale grey compared with modern titanium white paints.

[60117 Bois Roussel]

Modern white paint is based on titania (common name for titanium dioxide) which us dazzlingly white. Previously, it was based on white lead (common name for lead carbonate/sulphate) and it wasn't actually phased out until the mid-1950s. It can be described as having a warm, hint of yellow hue ("there are more shades of white than any other colour", it is sometimes said). You'd have to make this up to taste, or if using a modern titania-based aerosol, wait a few years for it to yellow, which, strange as it may seem, it does.

According to Michael Harris (1973), the LNER applied 2-3 coat of "white lead paint". Grey was not used until during/after WWII. And that's only as it left the works: a couple of trips in service, especially heading out of King's Cross and its tunnels and it all drifted towards a sooty black. I have never understood the LNER's penchant for such a short-lived scheme and examination of photographs of trains in service only finds something like 1 coach in 50 with a white roof. Indeed, the presence of a newly painted roof made the rest of the fleet look dirty. As modellers we are besotted by ex-works liveries but a more realistic finish is also more relaxing to view.

[billbedford]

I have never understood the LNER's penchant for such a short-lived scheme

They had no choice. The white lead was used as water proofing for the canvas on the roof. Other paints were tried, e.g. red lead, but these liveries didn't last very long. This suggest that there was no real substitute for white lead until steel roofs became common.

[drmditch]

I have never understood the LNER's penchant for such a short-lived scheme

They had no choice. The white lead was used as water proofing for the canvas on the roof. Other paints were tried, e.g. red lead, but these liveries didn't last very long. This suggest that there was no real substitute for white lead until steel roofs became common.

Doesn't this just show that what mattered to the big four railway companies was the endurance of and protection for the rolling stock, in what we would now regard as a polluted and hazardous environment ?

For the more important stock, what we would now call 'corporate image' was important, but what passengers would look at the roof of a vehicle they were travelling in?

As for other stock, surely what mattered was that it lasted as long as possible without too much discomfort to passengers, or damage to goods?

[60117 Bois Roussel]

Doesn't this just show that what mattered to the big four railway companies was the endurance of and protection for the rolling stock, in what we would now regard as a polluted and hazardous environment ?

For the more important stock, what we would now call 'corporate image' was important, but what passengers would look at the roof of a vehicle they were travelling in?

As for other stock, surely what mattered was that it lasted as long as possible without too much discomfort to passengers, or damage to goods?

Many aspects of railway operation are not black and white, as the saying goes. People's normal viewing perspective is eye-level and passengers couldn't help seeing the odd white roof, surrounded by sooty black. The need for protection is self-evident, but a dash of black would have helped to create a more uniform picture - and that was eventually adopted by the LNER. There were other examples of adjustments to counter environmental effects on liveries, such as the LNWR adding a dash of ultramarine to counter the effect of yellowing varnish and the GWR going over to cream for the same reason. There is something to be said for consistency.

[Graeme Leary]

Despite announcing my pleasure in an earlier posting at being able to leave my 8 Off White/Cream Hornby Pullman coach roofs (rooves??) as produced it still niggled at the pedant in me that out of some dozen or so (black & white) photos of the WRP only 1 or 2 coach roofs appeared to be anything close to the model colours, all others being clearly medium to slightly 'darkish' grey.
I therefore think I will adopt Bois Rousel's 'dash of black' comment and as this was 'eventually adopted by the LNER', this is good enough for me, & backed up by billbedford's 'was really a pale grey'.
Thanks all - end of queries (hopefully).
Graeme

[billbedford]

One other thing about roofs is that in photos of white roofs above darker coach sides the roofs will be over exposed and therefore white than they would appear in real life.

[60117 Bois Roussel]

'dash of black'

Psst - true black is difficult/expensive to manufacture and if you add it alone to white you may be surprised to see a shade of blue appear! On Agfa colour slides, black was always dark brown, but I digress... My solution is to add black and some Humbrol "Dark Earth", a WWII RAF camouflage colour, but which I think they have discontinued - grrr!

[Graeme Leary]

The plot doth thicken (and I did intend to finish at the last post - just about 'the' last post) but I cannot say I am not enjoying all this info that is still coming out from you learned gentlemen!

My confusion about the colour 'depth' of mid-dark grey roofs is from photos of captions specifically naming WRP in Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines - Part 1' on p111; p113; p116; & p118 (none of which have the loco carrying a WRP headboard) and p117 (2 photos - both carrying loco express name board) and all these examples look deeper than a mere adding of some black or 'discolouring' due to use; in fact the (darkish) roof colours seem quite intentional.

Likewise (from 'LNER Passenger Trains and Formations 1923-68') photo on p176 (same as Yeadon's p117); plus p's 178 (with N2 - even though this might be the Yorkshire Pullman where I presume the same applies anyway) all appear to be much darker and regular in depth than off white with a dash of black or discolouration through normal usage.

I mentioned the reference to 'canvas' roofs in an earlier posting reply to a (ex) Southern Railways man living here and he pointed out that this canvas was like what I know as 'malthoid' (but I presume this name also applies to the UK) and whether this may have been prone to 'discolouring' and/or fading. (He also said I was 'bonkers' for trying to get it right but there you go......................)!

Happy to end it here but if on a final note someone could suggest eg a Humbrol colour (and I'm leaning towards 165/Medium Sea Grey; 164/Dark Sea Grey for the darker tones or 196/Light Grey if paler) - and whether matt, satin or gloss - that might be near enough I could (reluctantly) move on to my next project (and start reading something other than the 2 above named books - driving my dear wife mad!

Thanks all; has been/is lots of fun (as I guess our hobby should be).

Graeme
New Zealand

[jwealleans]

Graeme,

Just as a suggestion, I paint all my carriage roofs a mixture of black, whatever grey is to hand and a small amount of talc. The talc lightens the colour slightly buts also matts down the finish and gives it a slight texture which contrasts with the (usually) shiny carriage sides. I also make every one slightly different.

[billbedford]

'dash of black'

Psst - true black is difficult/expensive to manufacture and if you add it alone to white you may be surprised to see a shade of blue appear! On Agfa colour slides, black was always dark brown, but I digress... My solution is to add black and some Humbrol "Dark Earth", a WWII RAF camouflage colour, but which I think they have discontinued - grrr!

Black pigments are cheap enough, they are just refined soot. The blueness comes from the titanium dioxide. You can also make your greys by using cream or magnolia instead of white.