Fred Lee drawings in Model Railway Constructor

[Dave S]

I have quite a few drawings credited to Fred Lee from MRC, how accurate are these in general ?
A bit of an open question, but just using the ECJS Clerestory drawings I have as an example, I've no other source material to check apart from a few which are in Nick Campling's book and the F Lee drawings are identical.

Thinking of restarting a coachbashing project I shelved a while ago while I have some time over Xmas.

[Atlantic 3279]

Following a recent outbreak of contentious remarks on this very subject:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8822&start=30
I exchanged e-mails with several people who were able to contribute to my ability to form a better impression of the accuracy or otherwise of those drawings, or more specifically the Peter K range of ECJS etches said to be based on Fred Lee's drawings. I think the simplest answer is that in general "it depends on how pedantic you are about ultimate accuracy", and that my personal view is that an implication from one party that the whole range of drawings were virtually useless was far too harsh and unhelpful. Obviously the Lee drawings do not show every detail, and as far as I've found they only show each vehicle at one point in time, many such vehicles being modified over the years. Against those limitations, I've only so far found one of the Peter K etches to be "seriously adrift", the error in question being that the two sides of the coach were etched as mirror images, with flush doors, and that was not in fact the case. I haven't yet convinced myself of whether this was Fred Lee's error or whether it was simply an "omission" in that he drew only one side and then the etch designer made an assumption for lack of other information. The doors however should have been recessed.
If you persist with this forum for a few more contributions and gain the facility to send private messages, you can if you wish then send me your e-mail address and if I can find time I'll send you a copy of a document I put together comparing the Peter K etches with various drawings. The Isinglass draings range is also worth looking at, along with Ken Hoole's book on the ECJS. Rumblings suggest that a new book may be on the way too.
If it helps with general knowledge of the subject, I might also be able to send you copies, with names removed, of some of the useful e-mail messages we exchanged after the original squabble.

[Dave S]

Many thanks for the reply Graeme, I have been in contact with you via RMweb (2-2-2 CPB).

I'd searched but that thread didn't come up, interesting...

I have about 10-12 of John's (Isinglass) drawings as well as about a dozen or so of the F Lee and was interested to see what they added in terms of accuracy. I have the Michael Harris GN & ECJS (Oakwood) book as well as others by Jenkinson, Campling etc. I do have the Hoole book which I'd forgotten I'd lent to someone and that was dropped off this morning, I'd forgotten just how much information there was in it.
I'm not going to be too pedantic with the build and pick a photograph cross referenced with a drawing. If it looks the part at 3' I'll be happy.

[Atlantic 3279]

Ah, the penny has now dropped....

[john coffin]

What we do not know is what source material Fred Lee had access to in his endeavours. Certainly in the early 50's it is unlikely that he would have
been allowed much access to the original drawings, so he may well have only been able to work from carriages still extant to which he had access on only one side. There are few Clerestory drawings in the York collection, as indeed there so far seem to be no 45ft Howlden Bogies that are legible
in the NRM. So we are then reliant on Hoole and estimates.

Indeed there is so much still to be learnt about the clerestories that even the acknowledge expert is still checking his work to see what else he can find out. If only those who went to Doncaster in the early 1960's had spent as much time saving the Howlden and earlier stuff as they spent on the Gresley carriages,we would be in pig heaven, rather like for instance the Midland people, and indeed the LMS. Sadly that did not happen so we are left in many places to guess, or hope that in some obscure collection, there are lost drawings that might eventually come to light.

Remember rules 1-10, it is your railway model and so unless you pontificate, it will be as right as you want it to be.
Paul

[Dave S]

I have a feeling that "Rule 1" is certainly going to be applied with these, but I like a challenge.

I'll write them up as I go, even if I fail.

[65447]

T'was in the '12 wheel coaches' thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8822 that a number of useful observations were made, if you can sort the wheat from the pontifications.

Diagrams may well be derided by some but first the ECJS/GN/LNER standards were comparatively high compared with other companies' efforts and second the plan view at least gave the arrangement and positions of windows and doors if not the panelling details. An appreciation of the forms of construction and 'standard' details allows at least educated guesses to be made for the undrawn sides.

An untapped source is the contemporary technical journals - David Jenkinson made great use of these in his writings when based at the NRM.

[Wavey]

What we do not know is what source material Fred Lee had access to in his endeavours. Certainly in the early 50's it is unlikely that he would have
been allowed much access to the original drawings, so he may well have only been able to work from carriages still extant to which he had access on only one side. There are few Clerestory drawings in the York collection, as indeed there so far seem to be no 45ft Howlden Bogies that are legible
in the NRM. So we are then reliant on Hoole and estimates.

Indeed there is so much still to be learnt about the clerestories that even the acknowledge expert is still checking his work to see what else he can find out. If only those who went to Doncaster in the early 1960's had spent as much time saving the Howlden and earlier stuff as they spent on the Gresley carriages,we would be in pig heaven, rather like for instance the Midland people, and indeed the LMS. Sadly that did not happen so we are left in many places to guess, or hope that in some obscure collection, there are lost drawings that might eventually come to
Paul

Very true. The LNERCA are restoring ECJS 3rd class diner 189 of 1894 and have found absolutely no drawings of use except the GA of a 12 wheeled GNR diner of about 1896 which had a similar interior.

[Woodcock29]

Hi Everyone

The mention of Fred Lee brought back memories of my visit to Fred's home 19 years ago (Nov 1997) when I was in NZ for work. I was taken to Fred's on a Saturday morning during a layout tour of local British outline layouts with Michael Hardman who at that time was 'our man in Palmerston North', ie the British Railway Modellers of Australia rep in that area.

I must say I don't remember much of the visit other than seeing Fred's small P4 layout with some of his GN coaches built from cardboard on it. See attached photo below. I do also recall Fred mentioning his drawings being published in MRC in the 60s which I dutifully searched for amongst my father's old MRCs when I returned home to Adelaide. I would have them somewhere in my railway room now.

The previous day I had visited Bill Richmond in Hamilton of LMS fame for his S4 layout based on Euston to Tring which has featured in MRJ several times many years ago.

Andrew Emmett

[Atlantic 3279]

In conversation last month with Rupert Brown regarding the Peter K etches for the 12 wheelers the question of minimum track radius cropped up. Rupert's "warning" was that if built as his examples had been, anything under a 4' 6" radius would be a struggle. If you want any similar coaches to work around tighter curves then thought is needed before construction. Undersize wheels, raised ride height and solebars further apart than scale are options, as indeed is the depiction of one of the modernized examples of such coaches mounted on shorter Gresley bogies. Food for thought.