Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

[adrianbs]

Hi Folks I have also watched the YouTube video, my comments about the quality are, of course, totally unprintable on this forum. Even the actual pictures of the model, when they finally appear, hardly do justice to the model and I think a five year old could do better by pure accident having both a phone and a model to hand.
….The really worrying aspect however is the determined effort by the commissioner to convince the potential purchasers of the early version that it was NOT LINED. Having looked at the photos published on that same forum as well as read the researches on this forum it appears they are making a last ditch effort to avoid having to admit they have got it wrong. The beading is clearly lined and it is not because the lining is on the curved edge of the beading that it might be a highlight reflection since the lining is on the flat of the beading, If it were a reflection highlight surely the same effect would appear on the edge of the bolection moulding !!
...Sadly we see for the umpteenth time that inadequate research has led to errors and the subsequent attempts to persuade the gullible that the model is correct. At least the rest of the model looks pretty good, and so it should for that sort of price. I wonder how soon this model might end in the remaindered bin if they have misjudged the market volume or the pickyness of some customers who expected lining for that price. Even the O gauge early RTR version is lined so someone at least believed that to be the case.

[Graeme Leary]

Thank you adrianbs, you've made a 'grumpy old man' happy. Despite having endured the 42 odd minutes of probably the most aggravating presentation of anything I recall seeing - and that includes fitness machines, soft/hard mattresses, incontinence underwear, non-stick saucepans, retirement homes, holidays in the Pacific Islands - (how often can you announce - amidst the 'wows' and the 'oh my goshes' - that you cannot pronounce the name of a product you're meant to be selling?) I was prepared to touch Rail's palm with some of the Queen's shillings and buy the coach. Maybe now I will wait until your forecast of the day when it might be 'remaindered' comes to pass (and at a lesser price, even take a chance that despite my abysmal skills I can apply the missing linings you refer to).

Graeme

[mick b]

Interesting comparison as to its livery ,shame its the post war version.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232809398998?ul_noapp=true

Golden Age have made a pre war model with the lining as per the Mike Trice photos on the Dark side link below.


There is a debate on the dark side as to whether the pre war version was lined or not? Has anyone actual evidence either way ?

Mike Trice posted some photos here

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... ar/page-16

To me it looks lined, I cannot see anyway that it is light reflecting off the beading as said by Rails, further down the page. Also another comment from Rails, saying that they never lined out these type of vehicles/ coaches in 1938 ?

[adrianbs]

Hi Folks The debate will continue unabated as Rails will not admit defeat, the models have been produced and almost certainly cannot be corrected at this stage, Rails cannot afford to scrap the models and make a new batch, If they did, Bingo! there goes their entire profit. We've seen it time and time again recently. For Rails all is not lost, even at this price most modellers are either too complacent or too gullible to do anything but pay up!

[Dave S]

the models have been produced

At least they're producing something rather than becoming a black hole

[Seagull]

I admire and applaude the standard of scolarship on this form and to an extent agree with the comments made regarding the lining, or lack of.

However I think the great majority (including myself) will look at this a little more pragmatically.

Could I make a model with this amount of detail and anywhere near this level of accuracy? No.
I don't have the time/money to do the research.
Don't have the time to build it.
Probably don't have the skill.
Can't paint that well.
Probably could not make it for much less that say £50-60 anyway.
I figure that £125 while maybe not exactly a bargain is still a fair price for what is offered - so far as I know no-one is being forced to buy it.

The lining is what? - 1/4" - 3/8" wide in real life. It probably becomes invisible at anything over 100 feet - a scale 400mm/16 inches.
If I ever get display cabinet (I'm more the drinks cabinet rather than display cabinet type ) the reflections off the glass would likely obscure any scale lining anyway.
If I can coax my Hornby Mallard up to somewhere near a scale 126mph it's going to be a little hard to see the lining anyway, especially if it is rocking from side to side prototypically.

Nobody has commented that Rapido have not included the dynamometer car staff taking refuge on the floor.

Must go now I've got to nip down to the shop before it closes to buy some Aniseed balls.

Alan

[Atlantic 3279]

The lining is what? - 1/4" - 3/8" wide in real life. It probably becomes invisible at anything over 100 feet - a scale 400mm/16 inches.
Alan

But is that true? The lining contrasts strongly with the rich, darker, varnished teak background. The pale yellow lining, just like the thin white lining on green locos, reflects light strongly, making it visible at a long range. Small bright objects are visible purely by virtue of their brightness at far greater ranges than small dark objects (which have to be of a sufficient size for the eye to resolve them).

You wouldn't be particularly keen to buy a green loco in alleged LNER livery but without any white lining, would you?

Why make excuses for a manufacturer's omission - one which probably does nothing to promote or preserve awareness of the correct details of history?

I see nothing wrong of course with individuals choosing to accept the model as it is, recognising that it either is, or may be, incorrect, but I don't think it's right to suggest that an incorrect finish doesn't matter. Will some buyers feel that it is necessary to state or to pretend that the accuracy of finish doesn't matter simply in order to defend the "value" of their purchase?

[Bunkerbarge]

As I might be someone thinking of purchasing one of these models I am very interested in this thread.

Consequently if such an enthusiastic approach is being taken to discrediting Rails of Sheffield and suggesting that they may have not been as thorough in thier research as they could have been would it be an appropriate question to ask just where is the available proof that the dynamometer coaches were, in fact, lined?

Any form of link or reference would be very much appreciated.

[nzpaul]

I'll leave it to you to decide whether to believe them or not but go have a look on Golden Age's website. States that dyno was lined pre 1946 unlined afterward. I think they'd have done their homework before asking big bucks for their brass version.

Cheers
Paul

[jwealleans]

Having seen some of the Golden Age products, I wouldn't be quite so certain. However it is possible that manufacturing necessity overrode what was researched.

There are a number of photos of the Dynamometer Car in LNER Reflections. Do they shed any light on the question?

[Bunkerbarge]

Further to my earlier question I have since looked at the Golden Age Models web site and subsequently I've looked at the Isinglass web site but cannot help but feel that so far I have only looked at alternative model suppliers opinions. What I would like to find is something a bit more objective and original from either the original dynamometer manufacturer or operator's records.

Surely all the model suppliers we are referring to must have obtained thier information from a reliable source to base thier products on? If we cannot refer to actual documentation from an original source surely all we are doing here is playing one model vendor off against another and favouring our own preferences. I'm not sure I see that as a basis for a strong enough case to be so critical of Rails of Sheffield.

For adrianbs to be so critical of these models I am hoping that he has access to and can therefore point me in the direction of some much more original definitive evidence.

[teaky]

Over on RMweb, no evidence has been provided to convince me that the dynamometer car is not lined. I find the images posted by Mike Trice compelling and those in LNER Reflections, especially the first one heading the dynamometer car chapter, reinforce this impression. I cannot see what date(s) the photographs are though and the Atlantic under test is has an early style of lettering with smaller LNER and 706 both on the tender. It is feasible that the LNER stopped lining this kind of vehicle by the late thirties, but if this is the case then it ought to be straightforward for Rails/Rapido to explain.

Photographs can produce some odd effects sometimes and I am open to persuasion from someone with more knowledge both of photography and of the prototype but at present I cannot understand how light can be reflected from all four sides of a panel and the corners in a consistent manner such that it suggests fine lining. One would expect to see variations caused by shadows if it was simply reflected light rather than painted lining.

I retain an open mind but currently I think the dynamometer car should be lined. (It's a good looking model though nevertheless.)

[Seagull]

But is that true? The lining contrasts strongly with the rich, darker, varnished teak background. The pale yellow lining, just like the thin white lining on green locos, reflects light strongly, making it visible at a long range. Small bright objects are visible purely by virtue of their brightness at far greater ranges than small dark objects (which have to be of a sufficient size for the eye to resolve them).

You wouldn't be particularly keen to buy a green loco in alleged LNER livery but without any white lining, would you?

Why make excuses for a manufacturer's omission - one which probably does nothing to promote or preserve awareness of the correct details of history?

I see nothing wrong of course with individuals choosing to accept the model as it is, recognising that it either is, or may be, incorrect, but I don't think it's right to suggest that an incorrect finish doesn't matter. Will some buyers feel that it is necessary to state or to pretend that the accuracy of finish doesn't matter simply in order to defend the "value" of their purchase?

I take your point about the locomotive lining, but in counter would point out how many pictures of carriages on this forum have been the subject of debate as to whether they were lined or not.

The reason being that there is less contrast between the white/black lining bands on a locomotive and the yellow/primrose lines on a teak background. Plus the effect of the light on the varnish of the carriage will sometimes highlight and sometimes hide the lining.

If you re-read my (slightly tounge in cheek) comments above you will see I am not defending anyone. Merely pointing out that I think this model is a considerable achievement flawed or not.

Those that have the skill can apply the lining themselves. Those with the money could pay someone to do it.

Alan

[Manxman1831]

This question of lining is quite intriguing. Having spent time researching the relevant photographs for both pre- and post-war, the obvious difference in the film does add to the discussion. With the the older shots, the lining on the car is quite apparent - when running in both NER and LNER days, the car is kept very shiny and clean. Fast forward to the loco exchanges of '48, and the lining has vanished - this may be due to the quality of the film or it has been allowed to fade away, OR as part of the British Railways rebranding the lining was painted out. Certainly, the very large number of shots I could find of the car behind Bulleid's Leader indicate the lining to be non-existent by that time. As preserved, there is no lining on the Dynamometer Car.

I think the shade of teak used on the example from Rails is too light, indeed the paint used would be more suited for the colouring of the lining that should be on the car, BUT that is my opinion, experts with better eyesight would probably refute this.

[mick b]

LNER Reflections photos, these photos were quite early as the Atlantic is in the first type of livery.

If the car was lined in 1938 ?. I see no reason why it would have been painted over. What I have noticed is there are no Duckets fitted in the photos , so a LNER modification pre 1938. The lining probably disappeared, when it was renumbered post war.
I would want the Coach lined before I would consider buying. As already said Yellow stands out on a Teak background, the LNER and others wouldn't have bothered if that wasn't the case.