Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

[billbedford]

Two points about coach lining:

LNER carriage lining was a 1/4" primrose line with arrow heads at each end outlined in red and applied to the centre of the beading between the upper panels. I believe I have see photos of pre-grouping carriages with this style of lining, but can't find the reference at the moment. The dynamometer car obviously have this sale of lining.

NER carriage lining was gold leaf, or gilt paint, applied to the edge of the beading, so that only a small amount of colour showed when viewed face on to the panel. The chances of anyone getting this to work well with tampo printing seems to me to be small to non-existing.

All in all it looks like Rapido has made the right decision.

[adrianbs]

Hi Folks Clearly Bill you have not read the topic I referred to in my last post which makes it plain that this, and probably other NER coaches were NOT lined out in the style normally used for LNER built coaches. The Gresley panelling style, ex GNR, makes lining out on NER coaches unsuitable and Mike is quite clear that the NER style continued to be used but with "teak" finish. The lining itself seems to have been on the flat of the beading not on the radius and was presumably the same primrose colour. Whether there was any attempt to introduce red as per LNER built vehicles on this style I doubt, but it seems unlikely.

[MikeTrice]

Some corrections to the last two posts.

First off the specification for LNER lining is shown on drawings as 5/16" for the primrose with a 3/32" red outline. This is the ideal however in practice it varied given they were painted by hand. Initially all LNER Standard carriages had the red/primrose/red combination however at some point in time the red was omitted from the lining for non-vestibule coaches with the lining being dropped completely for non-vestibule coaches around 1928.

By the same token pre-grouping coaches would have featured primrose/red, or primrose only subject to when they were painted.

Now lets put this in perspective. A non-vestibule coach turned out in 1927 would have been lined. It did not magically go through the works in 1928 to have the lining removed so any lining persisted on that vehicle until such time as the vehicle needed a full strip down and repaint whereas new builds would follow policy.

I have a photograph of an early pregrouping carriage that does have the red lining in addition to the primrose. As Adrian pointed out it also has the lining on the flat of the beading. I am awaiting permission to upload it (as it is not one of mine), but until then you will have to bear with me.

The Dynamometer Car was repainted in 1923 at a time that lining consisted of primrose and red and therefore would most likely have had that style. If the vehicle was not repainted until 1949 but only had a minor number change it would have retained the red as well as the primrose lining. Unfortunately the red does not show up on photos.

[john coffin]

Fascinating comments, and just to add to the mix.
Yesterday, I visited a local WORKS shop where they had two reprints of O.S.Nock's Pocket Encyclopedia of British Steam Railways.
allegedy first printed 1983, but I think actually produced before 1966, since mention is made of Clapham and other places where
data was stored. At £4.00 per volume, they each have a full set of coloured drawings of various liveries, plus many of the railway
logos. So I bought both.

In the earlier of the two volumes, which in my case has an NER Atlantic on the front, is a drawing/painting of the NER Dynamometer
car in LNER livery, and it certainly has visible lining on the centre piece, and above the windows. Since that would have been drawn
and painted with data from people who were there at the time, rather than those of us who were born post war, as almost
every one commenting is.

Whilst these two books do not answer the questions about interiors they are certainly a better reference black and white photos that
many rely on. If only someone now reproduced Carter's livery book some people's cups would overflow.

Other than an interested customer, I have no interest in The Works. For those of you who do not have one locally, it is worth checking them
out on line, and I am pretty sure that they will post stuff as well as provide click and collect, but do check.

HTH Paul

[MikeTrice]

I do indeed have that book and it does appear to show the vehicle is lined. Thanks for pointing it out as I had forgotten that image.

[adrianbs]

Hi Mike I would be quite prepared to believe the red and primrose lining was applied to the Dyno. although the red would most likely not even show up well on a colour picture either. Do you think the primrose lining would therefore have had a red line either side around each panel. That would seem logical but would it have survived like that till 1948. 20+ years is a long time even though this rather special car probably spent much of it's life under cover. Bearing in mind the NRM has not repainted many of the coaches in the collection for that length of time I think this coach might have not deteriorated nearly as quickly as the average "In service" vehicle. Even with the advent of Tampo printing I am not sure the red lines would be possible. Hornby have done a superb job with the lining on Maunsell pre-war liveries but they are not panelled.
…... As yet no one has tackled RTR panelled coaches with the more complex lining in 4mm which is probably why early coaches like that have been avoided. Even the best 7mm hand lined coaches I have are somewhat overdone or have been simplified and they do have a rather high price tag. It is not so much the ability to print very fine lines but the problem of perfect registration which becomes almost impossible except under temperature controlled conditions and identical components.
These light colours dominate both visually, photographically and on LED screens and whilst they may only be twice the thickness of a hair will give the impression of being much wider whilst the darker colours will almost disappear, even close up.

[MikeTrice]

No, the red is the outer edge of the primrose only. The photo once I can upload it will make all clear.

[adrianbs]

Hi Mike Aha Never guess when it comes to model making, if there are a ninety nine ways of doing it right and one doing it wrong you will always guess the wrong one !!

[Dave]

Mike if you are referring to the pics I sent you then yes you can post with pleasure, if it's not mine sorry.

[MikeTrice]

Mike if you are referring to the pics I sent you then yes you can post with pleasure, if it's not mine sorry.

Ta. Yes they were yours. Brilliant find.

[adrianbs]

Hi Folks Well that picture should put the "Doubting Thomas' " in their place. Thanks for the "Works" details, I have also ordered both books. Not quite sure how the "Experts" at the NRM will react to all this info although sadly it is too late to get either of the models corrected. The "Primrose" line in the last post is actually quite wide although in 4mm the red line would either be overly prominent if attempted or disappear if to scale. It is a very thin line and I doubt even Tampo printing could get than fine, it is barely visible even on the very enlarged picture. Scaling off both pictures VERY ROUGHLY the red line would be about 1/50th of a millimetre in 4mm scale, that's way less than a hairs width and when scaled up it works out at very close to the 3/32" as specified Hornby have managed to get down to about O.1mm lining which is almost perfect for the primrose line but the red line would have to be less than a third of that and would only be visible on a teak background using a magnifying glass. It's a good job most of us are old and can only just see the lining on a Hornby coach if we are lucky. Lining full size coaches was a very dark art, hand lining 4mm coaches is nothing short of magic.

[Dave]

A couple more detail pics of the lining.
Also note that the teak finish was painted, so not all old carriages were painted brown.

[Bunkerbarge]

Hi Folks Well that picture should put the "Doubting Thomas' " in their place.

Just to confirm, are the pictures of the Dynamometer car?

[Dave]

Ok lets make one thing clear the pictures of mine that Mike and I have posted are not of the dynamometer car, but they do show how a panelled carriage was line out in LNER days. The very observant of you will have noticed that the lining does not conform to the norm of red - primrose - red, but only primrose and red, with the red to the external face only and all painted on the flat, there is no trace of any internal red line anywhere on the carriage. I suspect this carriage was painted at Stratford, but I would say it would have been standard for any lined panelled carriage at York & Doncaster. Therefore if the dynamometer car was lined it would have been lined thus. As there is only one other original LNER painted carriage in existence that I am aware of so we have little first hand evidence to go on. I have a feeling this carriage will get over painted in the not too distant future and the livery will be lost for ever, unless the weather destroys it first as it is exposed and fading rapidly.
Given that the lining is on the flat then, if it was lined, the tampo process should work.
I will nail my colours to the mast and say on the evidence I have seen the dynamometer car was lined at the time of Mallards run.

[Dave S]

Ok lets make one thing clear the pictures of mine that Mike and I have posted are not of the dynamometer car, but they do show how a panelled carriage was line out in LNER days.

Many thanks for the picture Dave, just out of curiosity can you say which coach it is ?