Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

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adrianbs
LNER J39 0-6-0
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by adrianbs »

Hi Folks It is very interesting to see some contributors demanding ABSOLUTE proof of lining yet at the same time apparently believing all the other errors on livery and details, of which I presume they can see proof just by using their own eyes. Mike Trice has supplied a copy of official "FAUX TEAK" paint details but of course these were published on pages 36/7 in the copy of "Gresley Coaches" by Michael Harris I bought in 1973. This scheme, like that in Mikes paperwork does not include any mention of Black, which has made the model look dirty rather than the warm shade it clearly has in preservation. I presume in service it would have looked more like the original unrestored Faux teak still existing on the GER coaches I have seen.
Mikes details in the earlier Forum topic should be read to the end simply because his final conclusions are slightly different to his earlier comments. If Mike is prepared to do all his research and yet still change his mind it is a pity others who appear to have no contradictory evidence to present and seem not to have done any research either, still cannot accept his conclusions. This is of no consequence whatever, they can believe anything they like, even that the coaches were pink with yellow polka dots. What is important is that Rails/Rapido have made the errors and there is no going back unless NCIM and the curators at the NRM decide to do proper research and issue the special 1938 gift set with Mallard in an accurate livery. This is most unlikely as I assume the coaches are part of the current production batch and even if not, they cannot now issue accurate models when so many have already been sold. Historical accuracy has already been compromised at the NRM and it will be further damaged by the issue of these coaches. I appreciate that the NRM does not have unlimited funds but what is worse is for them to have historically inaccurate items on display but neither to alter them or at least be able to tell researchers of errors.
S.A.C. Martin

Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

Do give it a rest Adrian.

It's not a good look for you or model railways in general to keep repeating yourself and trying to railroad the rest of us into your views.

Frankly I'm satisfied that the Rails model has a greater degree of accuracy than not and that's an end of it to me.
Bunkerbarge
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by Bunkerbarge »

Nope, enough Adrian.

Why you want to insist on forcing your opinion down everyone's throats I have no idea. We are all free to make our own minds up. You have made yours, I have made mine. Based on what you have shown so far you will not change my mind and I am certainly not going to waste my time trying to do anything with yours.

"What is important is that Rails/Rapido have made the errors " that is not a fact, that is only opinion so please do not assume to present it as fact. Continually repeating it will not actually change it into a proven fact.

I can only assume now that you take some sort of enjoyment in trying to wind people up so again I will thank Mike for his time and considered opinion and move onto some thing far more productive and rewarding.
adrianbs
LNER J39 0-6-0
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by adrianbs »

Hi Folks, Is it NOT a fact that the speed recording wheel is clearly not white in 1938 or 1948. ?? Surely it Is fact that the toilet window was obscured, that the wheels were never shiny silver metal or the roof was not off white?? Is it not a fact either that Faux Teak has no black component either in the paint schedule nor even on the preserved coach ?? If these "Facts" are wrong please let us all know the correct facts since you are so sure these are only opinions. Do you believe Mike Trice and Michael Harris have got the points they put forward are rubbish ?? Please let us know which points DO you believe I and others have got right as this is important to those who would like to correct errors ??
Mike Trice has just posted OFFICIAL DETAILS of the primrose and red lining to be used in 1938 and stated that the car was put into store during the war and it's 1938 livery almost certainly remained intact until late 1948 and yet the very next post claims it was unlined from 1938 onwards.
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richard
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by richard »

adrianbs: You are merely repeating yourself, and ignoring the advice I gave. My next course of action is a temporary ban. No more warnings. No talking back to me either - you know exactly what the problem is.
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia
S.A.C. Martin

Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

adrianbs wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:36 pm Hi Folks, Is it NOT a fact that the speed recording wheel is clearly not white in 1938 or 1948. ?? Surely it Is fact that the toilet window was obscured, that the wheels were never shiny silver metal or the roof was not off white?? Is it not a fact either that Faux Teak has no black component either in the paint schedule nor even on the preserved coach ??
The black component of that livery cannot be seen at normal viewing distances and as such is trivial, IMO.
If these "Facts" are wrong please let us all know the correct facts since you are so sure these are only opinions. Do you believe Mike Trice and Michael Harris have got the points they put forward are rubbish ?? Please let us know which points DO you believe I and others have got right as this is important to those who would like to correct errors ??
They are not "facts" I am afraid Adrian, and you are not reading the evidence correctly, IMO.
Mike Trice has just posted OFFICIAL DETAILS of the primrose and red lining to be used in 1938 and stated that the car was put into store during the war and it's 1938 livery almost certainly remained intact until late 1948 and yet the very next post claims it was unlined from 1938 onwards.
Two things here Adrian: firstly the photographs posted are dated. I cannot see lining out there.

We know what was LIKELY to be the case for lining out in 1938 - but from 1939 the instructions for coaches changed significantly due in no small part to austerity measures on behalf of the war effort.

I am not 100% sure the car was unused during the war. There are notes in the Kew Garden archives indicating it was used on test under Thompson a number of times behind prototype locos.

On the second point - given is a document that is not specifically for the livery application of the dynamometer car, but indicates how others were.

I do not believe I need to explain further why this is not evidence of a written document that details how the dynamometer car should be liveried.

With respect to Mike Trice, he has posted these things for us to examine and very kindly allowed us to make our own minds up. For which he has my thanks.
MikeTrice
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by MikeTrice »

S.A.C. Martin wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:15 pm I am not 100% sure the car was unused during the war. There are notes in the Kew Garden archives indicating it was used on test under Thompson a number of times behind prototype locos.
Following Mallard's speed run the first instance of the Dynamometer Car being used was 30/5/46 to provide practise for the staff and testing of the instruments using V1 on outward journey and A5 on return. Tests then started in ernest 3-6/6/1946.

Regarding the statement "OFFICIAL DETAILS of the primrose and red lining to be used in 1938", no the tender did not mention colours just that they were lined.
drmditch

Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by drmditch »

With regard to the Dynamometer Car being in storage after 1938, and with due respect to those who have studied the original documentation, there is a comment by D R Carling on page 66 of Peter Townend's 'LNER Pacifics' remembered.

Mr Carling joined the LNER as an Assistant on the dynamometer car in 1936. He relates that '....nor had the use remote controlled micro indicators proved sufficiently reliable when used before my time by the Darlington testing team. Work was therefore started on the development of a cathode-ray type indicator which would enable the diagrams to be seen in the dynamometer car and recorded as necessary.' 'When the design and development of this indicator has developed sufficiently, trials were carried out first on a K3 between Darlington and York, and then on an A1 or A3 between Newcastle and Edinburgh.' '....it was noticed that Sir Nigel Gresley usually arranged to accompany a trial run to Edinburgh on the day of an international rugby match at Murrayfield. Before the the final touches could be put to this indicator, war broke out and it was not resumed afterwards.'

Unless the testing team was using another vehicle would this not suggest that the Car was active into 1939?

Quick research on Google/Wikipedia would appear to suggest that international matches were played at Edinburgh on:
20th March 1937
5th February 1938
26th February 1938
18th March 1939

Would Sir Nigel have been well enough to attend a match in 1939?
mick b
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by mick b »

Thanks to Mike, and to Richard for the intervention , well done to both !!
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greenglade
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by greenglade »

drmditch wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:11 pm With regard to the Dynamometer Car being in storage after 1938, and with due respect to those who have studied the original documentation, there is a comment by D R Carling on page 66 of Peter Townend's 'LNER Pacifics' remembered.

Mr Carling joined the LNER as an Assistant on the dynamometer car in 1936. He relates that '....nor had the use remote controlled micro indicators proved sufficiently reliable when used before my time by the Darlington testing team. Work was therefore started on the development of a cathode-ray type indicator which would enable the diagrams to be seen in the dynamometer car and recorded as necessary.' 'When the design and development of this indicator has developed sufficiently, trials were carried out first on a K3 between Darlington and York, and then on an A1 or A3 between Newcastle and Edinburgh.' '....it was noticed that Sir Nigel Gresley usually arranged to accompany a trial run to Edinburgh on the day of an international rugby match at Murrayfield. Before the the final touches could be put to this indicator, war broke out and it was not resumed afterwards.'

Unless the testing team was using another vehicle would this not suggest that the Car was active into 1939?

Quick research on Google/Wikipedia would appear to suggest that international matches were played at Edinburgh on:
20th March 1937
5th February 1938
26th February 1938
18th March 1939

Would Sir Nigel have been well enough to attend a match in 1939?

You are correct sir...the car was also used 1946/47 dates listed are:

30.05.46 2-6-2T 484 and 4-6-2T 1766, refamiliarisation runs
29.10 to 15.11.46 4-6-2 500 Edward Thompson, Newcastle-Leeds, coal, water consumption tests
19.11 to 06.12.46 2-6-2 959, Newcastle-Edinburgh, coal, water consumption tests

june io October 1947 car overhauled at York C&W Works

14.10 to 24.10.47 4-6-0 1607 Blickling and 4-6-0 1622 Alnwick Castle worked the 10.10am Norwich-Liverpool Street and 3.40pm return-

1607: 14th,15th,23rd,24th; 1622: 16th,17th,21st,22nd.. Comparison trials between the 2cyl B2 1607 and 3 cyl B17 1622

It may be of interest to this discussion that the car had a 4-month overhaul at York 1947, perhaps a deeper search for details on this may answer the question?

regards

Pete
mick b
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by mick b »

No 500 thats handy info !! I wonder what else Thommo was hauling at the time ?
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MikeTrice
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by MikeTrice »

greenglade wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:28 pm It may be of interest to this discussion that the car had a 4-month overhaul at York 1947, perhaps a deeper search for details on this may answer the question?
The log books states the following: "Car gear overhauled, new coupling on live end, drawbar annealed, gearboxes lined up, integrator plate & disc turned & trued up, instrument table planed level, steam meter overhauled at Messrs Kent & Co, all wiring to pens excitement(????) amplifiers & convertors overhauled, and gear for testing integrator fitted. Integrator testing and calibrated Sept 23,24 & 25/47"
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greenglade
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by greenglade »

Interesting Mick...

There is more info in Dave Peel's very informative book 'Locomotive Testing on Britain's Railways 1901-1968' which is what I've been quoting. Interestingly the car underwent repairs to among other things, it's Vestibule at York 20.01-25.01.1948, would this have involved fresh paint to its roof?
There's a detailed description of what happened to it during the 60's.. Darlington works submitted a quote of £435 to restore the car, after the mechanicals were renovated it was moved to York C&W works for restoration of the coachwork and fittings, work commencing July 1963.

Although not finished by end 1964 it was moved to Clapham to sit behind Mallard. The article gives a lot of info on how the car was moved, the unfinished work at York was then completed by Mr Peter Howe on a voluntary basis, back to its original 1938 condition. Of course, once NRM York was opened Mallard and the car was moved there.

For anyone interested in the dynamometer cars and their history including test dates with details I highly recommend this book.
It covers the cars by GWR and L&YR/LMS, LMS/LMR, WR, NER/LNER, LNER/BR, LMS mobile test plant, Swindon test plant and Rugby along with some history and 'interchange trials'.

Regards

Pete
MikeTrice
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by MikeTrice »

greenglade wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:34 pm Interestingly the car underwent repairs to among other things, it's Vestibule at York 20.01-25.01.1948, would this have involved fresh paint to its roof?
The log books tells us "Jan 20th - Jan 25th 1948 Car sent to York Carriage Works for repairs to vestibule, inspection of bogies and overhaul of batteries". Whether it did or did not involve repainting the roof is not recorded.
Seagull
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Re: Rails/Rapido LNER Dyno Car to be made !!

Post by Seagull »

MikeTrice wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:52 pmall wiring to pens excitement(????) amplifiers & convertors overhauled,
The 'excitement amplifiers' would be to excite = drive the pens.

The received input signals would have been too small to move the recording pens, or at least to move them very far, hence the signals would have been amplified.

From the work listed they pretty much replaced or overhauled every part of the recording gear.

Alan
Last edited by Seagull on Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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