Compressed coach formations

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Nova
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Compressed coach formations

Post by Nova »

I think we can largely agree that the vast majority of modelers are unable to model ECML train formations in full, myself being one of those modellers, once my layout is built I might not be able to have trains much bigger than 6 coaches (though that might change), so I was wondering if the formations of the larger or more well known timetabled expresses could be "shrunk" down to 6 coaches by removing as many "duplicates" of coaches as possible so that only the major changes in coach type (IE from 3rd open to composite corredor, as an example) remain.

Either that or some generic six coach express passenger/semi fast formations that can be achieved using Kirk Kits and Bachmann Thompsons
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JASd17
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by JASd17 »

It rather depends where and when on the ECML you are looking to give a flavour of.

Many of the Cambridge Buffet Car Expresses of the mid to late 1930s could be 5-carriage formations, as an example.

It would be very difficult to model a top ECML express with only 6 vehicles, particularly if using a triplet catering set. If you are mainly concerned with post-war formations, it is likely you would need at least two catering vehicles in a top express formation. Along with a BG that leaves just 3 other carriages.

It might be worth looking at how layouts such as 'Grantham' have gone about this, although Graham's train length of around 9 carriages allows considerably more scope to get the feel of an 11, to as many as 16, carriage formation. In fact 17 carriage formations were not unusual pre-war.

I am afraid there is no such thing as a 'generic formation' on the LNER. It is not the LMS. But there are formations which could suit your situation, if you choose to ignore the major trains.

It is a very complicated subject.


John
Nova
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by Nova »

JASd17 wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:26 pm It rather depends where and when on the ECML you are looking to give a flavour of.
the southern part of the NER stretch of the ECML, particularly between Doncaster and Selby in the post war period, I suppose I should have elaborated this from the beginning.
It would be very difficult to model a top ECML express with only 6 vehicles, particularly if using a triplet catering set. If you are mainly concerned with post-war formations, it is likely you would need at least two catering vehicles in a top express formation. Along with a BG that leaves just 3 other carriages.
in this instance I'd reduce it down to just one catering vehicle
It is a very complicated subject.
:lol: you're telling me, it's exactly why I decided to ask on a forum in the first place.


my hope is I can fit in 8 or 9 coaches as compressing the train lengths down to 8 or 9 is much simpler (as pointed out in your full post), truth is I can't fully remember the dimensions of the allocated area for the layout but I'd rather underestimate the size of a layout and get advice for the "worst" case scenario than completely overestimate and leave my expectations shattered.
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
Hatfield Shed
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by Hatfield Shed »

I would suggest starting with BTK/TK/TK/Restaurant-Buffet of choice/FK/BCK as a representative long distance express; because these were among the most common vehicles in such a train. The BCK is there to represent the through working when the main train terminates at Edinburgh (for Aberdeen). This formation will also do reasonably well at providing a realistic ratio of 3rd and first class seats. If you then find you can fit in eight, the single catering vehicle can come out and be replaced by a triplet restaurant set which is the LNER's ECML signature item.
JASd17
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by JASd17 »

Can I ask on what basis you would suggest this formation 'Hatfield Shed' ?

John
Hatfield Shed
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by Hatfield Shed »

For the reason given: BTK, TK, FK, BCK, are likely to be found in almost all of the long distance expresses that typically ran with a dozen coaches and up formations that the OP seeks to represent. In such a train there will be third only accomodation, there will be sufficient first class traffic to justify at least one all first, there will be a brake vehicle either end, one of which may well be a through coach. It might be objected that such a train lacks any real identifying character, and that is true; but it provides a skeleton to which the specific vehicles that were characteristic of a particular service might either be added as space allows or directly substituted.

Any vehicles that are displaced by substitution will always be useful in developing other trains: I just have this thing about economy...
JASd17
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by JASd17 »

Hatfield Shed wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:34 pm I would suggest starting with BTK/TK/TK/Restaurant-Buffet of choice/FK/BCK as a representative long distance express; because these were among the most common vehicles in such a train. The BCK is there to represent the through working when the main train terminates at Edinburgh (for Aberdeen).
There is much to be said for your formation 'Hatfield Shed', excepting the catering. That is not right either pre or post-war. The East Coast sets simply did not have single vehicles of the type you suggest.

One could put in a Restaurant First and TO combination, or an RF and Pantry Third, The carriages arranged so the First class is together.

That is one extra carriage. Of course that could well be one too many. Then Rule One certainly applies.

John
williewhizz
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by williewhizz »

The Banks & Carter book has a lot to say about catering carriage formations and their use between different categories of LNER/BR(ER) expresses. Much would depend on the nature of the train you're trying to 'compress' in the first place - or are you trying to represent a 'generic' formation that could be used more than once in an operating sequence with different locos?

In any event, as I understand it, the minimum catering formation would usually have been RF + TO. If you then have a BTK at either end (or a BCK and BTK, but that's more GC line practice I believe) and your maximum practicable length is indeed 6 carriages, your options for anything that 'looks realistic' are probably confined to either FK + TK or CK + TK. If space permits, add another TK to better reflect the usual balance between first and third seats in all but the elite trains. If you can get the length up to 8 carriages, only then I suggest do the more exotic formations with three catering vehicles become plausible to consider.
Last edited by williewhizz on Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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manna
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

Looking through one of my books last night, it had a nice 3/4 view of a C1 and a six car Harrogate Pullman, so now you have a correct compressed formation. :D

manna

PS the book was LNER 150.
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Nova
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by Nova »

manna wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:27 pm G'Day Gents

Looking through one of my books last night, it had a nice 3/4 view of a C1 and a six car Harrogate Pullman, so now you have a correct compressed formation. :D

manna

PS the book was LNER 150.
I'll have to keep that in mind (if I can ever afford the beautiful Bachmann model)
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
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manna
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

You could try the D49, if modelling the Northern half of the run.

manna
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Graeme Leary
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by Graeme Leary »

This series of postings covers exactly the dilemma I've found myself in as before I considered doing an accurate Flying Scotsman express formation I had put in place (permanently, short of a major rejig of the layout) a fairly good representation of a major main line station that I felt the FS Express may have stopped at. However, once I got into the arcane world of express formations and realised exactly what was 'correct' for a Grouping era FS express, my station, which will comfortably take 1 tender loco and just 6 carriages, became a tad too 'short' to be a 'stopping' proposition - and will be exacerbated when my Restaurant Triplet set kit arrives from Comet in the hopefully near future. So, my Flying Scotsman Express (based on the 1936 Summer roster - as detailed in Banks and Carter) will have to be a continuous 'non-stop' running through the station mentioned on the layout. (This should keep me on my toes trying to work other trains, and in particular stopping goods, that will be on the same tracks with only a couple of passing loops - also permanently in place - through the general melee).
This was a most frustrating conclusion to arrive at but at least my 'West Riding Pullman' with a C1 Atlantic and 6 Pullman coaches will have the length to stop at said station and 'disgorge' and take on passengers.
Very interesting and informative series of posts - many thanks all.
Graeme Leary
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manna
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

Many stations on the LNER would have been to short to handle the Flying Scotsman train, when that ran for most of the year with a 15+ coaches, stations were built to handle there own local traffic requirements, for instance, Huntingdon, a largish town, on the mainline, with three platforms, and not one of them could handle a 15 car train, although express's called regularly, I remember when trains, had contracted to 11 coaches, they were still to long for Huntingdon, the engine was still hanging off of the platform, today it may be different, but we are talking the 1930's.

manna
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52D
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Re: Compressed coach formations

Post by 52D »

good call manna, even recently passengers for Alnmouth on the down Heart of Midlothian were advised to sit at the front of the train as when the trusty Deltic stopped the rear of the train was off the platform.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
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