Semaphore Signals

[Graeme Leary]

Further to my last posting re overall heights of Ratios 478 Gantry and 486 Lattice signal kits, I have just come across a brilliant photo of what I seem to recall somebody once saying is a layout based on (was it) Retford Junction which shows 2 tracks crossing at right-angles another double line track/s. Before the crossing these approach tracks turn off to the right and join back on to the cross lines and there is also a 3rd track which terminates in a siding, also just before the crossover (plus the same on the other side. (A4 60700 with a rake of 'blood and custard' coaches is on this left to right cross track and a goods train with empty minerals approaching the crossing/s). Apologies for any incorrect terminology.

What is of interest is the gantry (partly set on a bank slightly 'dropping away' to the left) on which there are 5 posts. If anybody can recognise this from my description, would I be correct in assuming the 2 right side posts on the gantry are for the tracks turning off to the right (ie joining the 'direct' crossing line) even though they're not over the 2 tracks; and the next 2 posts in would control the 2 straight ahead tracks? If so, what would the left most post (with a home and distant combined signal) control as the left side track is the siding terminating just before the pair of crossing tracks?

All a bit daunting for a colonial (and my skills don't extend to scanning & sending the photo I'm referring to) so again any comments would be very helpful.

Graeme

[JASd17]

Graeme,

Are you referring to this gantry on Roy Jackson's layout?

The doll on the far left controls the track nearest the gantry, only.

All the rest control the various routes available from the main line next to it. There are three routes Down through the station, including two platform roads and a Down Goods line, these all curve off to the right, the main line doll being the highest one nearest the camera. This leaves the route straight on over the crossing, which the far line joins before the level crossing.

John

[Trestrol]

You could just use solid square plastic strip for the dolls which gives you more options. We did that with ours. The LNER did this and the ex Scarborough gantry at the NYMR has these.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks JASd117 - that is definitely the gantry I've referred to (and some layout this must be!)

The photo I have is looking directly at the gantry and from your explanation does this mean the 3 central posts (and - forgive the ignorance - are these known as 'dolls'?) control the right turning lines and the right signal ,despite being to the right of the gantry actually control the direct ahead line/s? My instinct would be that signals for right turning tracks would be to the right of the gantry and (in this case) straight ahead would be the 2nd and/or 3rd to left of the 5.

This scenario is very similar to one of my 3 places where I plan to fix gantries, where the main parallel double up and down lines turn right (into my main station) but the roads continue straight ahead into the goods yard, where they split into 10 or 11 for the goods yard with one of these also carrying on to stop at a small suburban station before continuing on to a 'imaginary' branch line - 'imaginary' as it disappears into a fake tunnel set back about 6" from the wall of my layout room

Thanks also TRESTROL and please see my query about 'dolls' - must look this up as first time I'd heard this term (but maybe a quick 'heads up'' would give me a more correct explanation.............) Once I know for sure will follow your suggestion.

Graeme

PS: Either/any of you planning a trip to New Zealand in the near future? I'm just about ready for a visit from the cavalry!

[Graeme Leary]

Further to these postings, I have just come across a series of articles in BRM dating back to 2010/1 headed 'Semaphore Signal Construction' but only have parts 2/November 2010; 3/December 2010 & 5/February 2011 (plus an odd unnumbered one which I first thought was probably part 4 but is dated a year later as December 2011).

As has been commented on in reviews, as good as these Ratio kits are the instructions are not very clear and I feel that Part 1 (which I don't have) may give some further clues to assembling my 3 Gantry and LNER Lattice signal kits.

BRM's website doesn't seem to go as far back as 2010/1 and I'd be grateful if someone could direct me to where I might be able to get Part 1 (possibly the October 2010 issue) and Part 4, probably the January 2011 issue.

Thanks again.

Graeme

[Mickey]

Even amongst upper quadrant signals there were slight variations to be found for example on LNER lines the 'spectacle area' (where the red/yellow/green glass was housed) was on LNER lines tended to be painted black from where the actual signal arm finished (as shown on the above signal gantry) but on the LMS lines the 'spectacle area' was quite often also painted red or yellow the same colour as the signal arm (depending on what the signal arm was?) also the signal posts on LNER lines were often different looking to the signal posts that were to be found on LMS lines which could make upper quadrant signals mounted on them look quite different looking from one region to another.

Mickey

[Trestrol]

DOLLS each signal post on a junction signal is called a doll. Each doll is a relative height to the route it represents. The taller doll refers to the higher speed or main route with lower speed/ alternative routes on smaller dolls in accessing sizes.

[Mickey]

DOLLS each signal post on a junction signal is called a doll. Each doll is a relative height to the route it represents. The taller doll refers to the higher speed or main route with lower speed/ alternative routes on smaller dolls in accessing sizes.

Also following on from TRESTROL in earlier days especially on 'low speed' lines/routes such as on some Goods/Carriage lines and at some stations and at some terminal stations semaphore signal arms were sometimes mounted one above the other on one signal post I believe from memory there would only be a maximum of 5 signal arms that were allowed in this form (the signal arms would usually read TOP to BOTTOM LEFT to RIGHT in ascending order for the routes to which they applied to) later on 'route indicator boxes' replaced the several signal arms mounted one above the other where only one semaphore signal arm was provided and worked in conjunction with the 'route indicator box' that was usually mounted below the single semaphore signal arm.

Mickey

[JASd17]

Graeme,

I seem to have confused you by using 'main line' twice in a different context.

The three right hand dolls all refer to routes through the station, these are all off round the corner.

The two dolls with distant arms, control the straight on route over the crossing, from the two tracks, at this point.

John

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks John, Mickey and TRESTROL. Think I've got my head around the facts now - much appreciated.
Graeme

[PinzaC55]

I completely forgot that I still had this gantry made from bits and pieces of the Ratio signals ! It has been damaged and repaired a couple of times thus the slightly wonky legs


20170531 000238 par PinzaC55, on ipernity

*BTW I forgot to mention that I used the lattice posts from the "T" bracket signals as the main uprights for the gantry but they aren't tall enough to give enough clearance so I had to cut short sections from another one and glue them end on to raise the height.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks for the shot Pinzac55 - illustrates neatly TRESTROLs comments about the different height of the dolls to represent different routes and also another earlier posting noting that 'squared' gantry ends are more relevant to LNER rather than the rounded ends on the Ratio kit.
Also was there any uniformity in the colours LNER gantrys were painted? I have seen everything from White, off white and (in Black and white shots) what appears to be quite dark colours
Graeme

[Mickey]

Also was there any uniformity in the colours LNER gantrys were painted? I have seen everything from White, off white and (in Black and white shots) what appears to be quite dark colours

The well known signal gantry that once stood outside Grantham Yard box was known by local railwaymen as 'black bess' due to stationary steam locos chimneys positioned directly or almost directly underneath the gantry and turning it from white to a dark colour overtime.

I think most signal posts anywhere be them of wood, Iron lattice or metal tubular were originally painted 'white' but became 'off white' looking through becoming aged and dirty over long periods of time. Concrete signal posts were usually left a 'concrete sandy colour' although there may have been a few concrete signal posts that were painted white at a few locations somewhere around the railway?.

Mickey

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks Mickey - white they will be (with heavy touches of black for authenticity).
Graeme

[PinzaC55]

On the North Eastern Region they were normally white with black socks up till about 1950 then they were nearly all Grey Micaceous Oxide. There were exceptions like the big (still existing ?) gantry at Harrogate which I think has always been white.
My photo here of a gantry at Tynemouth is a good example of the grey paint.

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/pinzac55/30747393/sizes/500