Semaphore Signals

[davidbird]

DOLLS each signal post on a junction signal is called a doll. Each doll is a relative height to the route it represents. The taller doll refers to the higher speed or main route with lower speed/ alternative routes on smaller dolls in accessing sizes.

Also following on from TRESTROL in earlier days especially on 'low speed' lines/routes such as on some Goods/Carriage lines and at some stations and at some terminal stations semaphore signal arms were sometimes mounted one above the other on one signal post I believe from memory there would only be a maximum of 5 signal arms that were allowed in this form (the signal arms would usually read TOP to BOTTOM LEFT to RIGHT in ascending order for the routes to which they applied to) later on 'route indicator boxes' replaced the several signal arms mounted one above the other where only one semaphore signal arm was provided and worked in conjunction with the 'route indicator box' that was usually mounted below the single semaphore signal arm.

Mickey

The small arms above each other on the same post are usually reserved for shunting moves, rather than just 'low speed' lines... You are quite right that they apply top-to-bottom left-to-right.

[StevieG]

Also following on from TRESTROL in earlier days especially on 'low speed' lines/routes such as on some Goods/Carriage lines and at some stations and at some terminal stations semaphore signal arms were sometimes mounted one above the other on one signal post I believe from memory there would only be a maximum of 5 signal arms that were allowed in this form (the signal arms would usually read TOP to BOTTOM LEFT to RIGHT in ascending order for the routes to which they applied to) later on 'route indicator boxes' replaced the several signal arms mounted one above the other where only one semaphore signal arm was provided and worked in conjunction with the 'route indicator box' that was usually mounted below the single semaphore signal arm.

Mickey

The small arms above each other on the same post are usually reserved for shunting moves, rather than just 'low speed' lines... You are quite right that they apply top-to-bottom left-to-right.

For the record, I would say that 'small arms' [ (frequently referred to as "miniature") : and where used in preference to the ubiquitous discs] should normally only be found -
- in sidings or other line not worked by any fully-fledged Block system [irrespective of being for shunting moves, e.g. also for leaving a siding(s) to a running or other through line],
- on a running line for facing entry into a siding(s) or other line not worked by a Block system,
- on a running line for reverse moves shunting to a siding or other line.

There certainly have been large-size stop signal arms for routes at a divergence(s) on a running line which were mounted vertically above each other, though not too common.
For example there were at least 10 instances at Finsbury Park until the 1970s resignalling (see my avatar for the greatest grouping), I think I recall photos showing one or two that were at Battersby, and there's certainly 1950s photographic evidence of some on Pelham Street Box's large gantry once at the south end of Lincoln Central station.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks again for the latest additions - will help me get things presented more accurately.

BUT, the current problem facing me is assembling the Ratio 486 kit LNER Lattice signal kits to mount on the Pratt gantry. The first instruction (and Illustration A) is to cement post sides (1) and (2) together. What this seems to give is a 'flattish' piece consisting of 2 lattice panels hard against each other whereas I would presume there should be 4 lattice sides forming a hollow 'square'. Most likely a misinterpretation of the instructions but I do recall someone saying yonks ago that the Ratio instructions are not clear!

Comments (and help) gratefully welcomed.

Graeme

[StevieG]

" .... BUT, the current problem facing me is assembling the Ratio 486 kit LNER Lattice signal kits to mount on the Pratt gantry. The first instruction (and Illustration A) is to cement post sides (1) and (2) together. What this seems to give is a 'flattish' piece consisting of 2 lattice panels hard against each other whereas I would presume there should be 4 lattice sides forming a hollow 'square'. Most likely a misinterpretation of the instructions but I do recall someone saying yonks ago that the Ratio instructions are not clear! .... "

All lattice posts [well, at least the vast majority I suppose ( - "never say 'never' " - ) ], whether 'main' or gantry/bracket structure dolls, AFAIK do have four sides, forming, as you say, 'a hollow square' or similar.
Although perhaps most readily associated with the LNER and Southern railways and their (some?) constituent companies, examples, fewer in number, were used by some other companies, even the GWR, although detailed design of the 'latticing' could vary; e.g. some had their diagonal strutting strictly straight, while others had curving where they joined other elements.

[LNER4479]

Morning,

To be fair, the Ratio kits are quite long in the tooth these days - I remember first grappling with them over 30 years ago! As such, the lattice post kits are a simple representation of the prototype and do indeed consist of two plastic piece glued together to represent a 4-sided post.

If you want to improve the appearance significantly then you're in to soldering up etched brass components...

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks StevieG and LNER4479 for comments. As I have 3 each of the Ratio gantry and LNER lattice signal kits I will persevere with them and refer back to some of the earlier illustrations kindly posted plus magazine cuttings - sure I'll end up with something 'acceptable' once all done, weathered etc. Stubby (ie 'non-fine work) fingers crossed!
Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

Further to previous have just been shown how to add photos so (hopefully) here is my situation.

I consider the 4 left side tracks as the Up (ie the 2 each side of the central platform) and run clockwise, all leading into the left road of the 2 that curve off to the right at the top of the shot just past the level crossing/

The 2 tracks to the right of the shot are the Down (anti-clockwise) and come off the other parallel curving track at the top and then split to allow a stopping train (at a platform just out of sight) and a 'through' train - the one with the bogie well wagons with the drums and the brake van.

Would I assume correctly that the gantry (by the signal box) should have 4 dolls with single arms covering the 4 up tracks for trains leaving/passing through the station and if so, what should the relative heights of each doll be? The gantry's semaphore arms would therefore all be for the Up roads but I have seen photos of similar situations where there is a single arm, facing the opposite way covering - in my case - the down track. Would it be correct (necessary) to include this and would it be a 'starter' or 'distant' signal?

And should another arm be added to the left side of the gantry for the track that divides off to the left just past the level crossing (which goes to a suburban line) or would a separate single post after the gantry - maybe with a distant arm - cover this.

Any comments gratefully received - and now for the tricky but, to see if the photo has been added correctly.

Thanks all.
Graeme

[LNER4479]

Hmmm...

Strictly speaking, the gantry is too far forward of the station to be used to signal the four 'up' roads either side of the platform. You actually highlight the problem in your last question as the single track junction away to the left is, operationally, a different piece of railway to be signalled.

What might have happened in that situation is that each of the four roads would have its own (bracket) signal with two arms on: the right hand one would have been higher to indicate departure out of the station along the mainline; the left hand one lower to indicate departure out of the station and onto the diverging route. These signals would be located on or alongside the platform, at a point before the tracks start converging towards each other.

Positioned as it is, the gantry could be used to signal trains on the 'down' line into the station - this could be in conjunction with two 'up' arms to indicate the junction for the left hand route. That might be an acceptable compromise for a model railway situation (given that I think my above description would be more typical for the 'up' roads).

But - hey - its your railway, rule 1 and all that

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks LNER4479 for your comments plus the link to Grantham - The Streamliner Years. (I have seen this topic heading many a time and now realise if I had looked at it previously I may have saved myself (plus you and the other contributors) a lot of time on my questions).

However, has me wondering if some of the following postings on the Grantham link might be appropriate for what I'm trying to achieve (and trust I've quoted posting dates correctly as unable to type this and refer back):-

Posting Sept 18, 2013: I presume this is the type of situation you refer to and 'apt' for my situation as described
" Nov, 21, 2013: The semaphore by the 'Yard Box' signal box
" July 26, 2014: The semaphore (with 5317 on the turntable)
" Oct 24, 2014: 'Signals under construction' shot - is this the type I should have by my 4 Up roads?
" Nov 21, 2016: 4 arm/single post photo - is this more the type to cover my 4 Up tracks and closer to the
platform
" Nov 28, 2016: Or jwelleans 2 semaphore shots in his posting (and what an impressive range of Pacifics)

Any confirmation (or 'thumbs down') to my assumptions gratefully received but no problems if time doesn't allow going through all this brilliant topic (some 10 pages!!)

Another 2 or 3 shots caught my eye - the dynamometer car (I presume scratch built) in light of Rails of Sheffield announcing they're having this commissioned for their own range and due - I think - later this year.

Many thanks again for comments/suggestions (but more particularly all your PATIENCE!)

Graeme