Semaphore Signals

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Graeme Leary
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Semaphore Signals

Post by Graeme Leary »

Now at the stage of adding semaphore signals to my layout and a little bit of reading indicates that LNER used mainly (only??) 'Lower Quadrant' semaphore signals - and same reading advises this means the board had 2 positions - horizontal for 'stop/danger' and pointing downwards at approx 45 degrees for 'proceed'.

Is this correct for LNER as prior to getting to this stage I have acquired a fair number of Hornby semaphore signals (their R171/R172 for Single Home and Distant and R169/R170 for Double Home and Distant) but they are all 'Upper Quadrant' types? As I have a fair number of these are there instances where Upper Quadrants were used on LNER lines and would therefore be quite 'acceptable'? (I'm trying to represent things reasonably accurately but happy with some modeller's 'license')!

Alternatively, is there any way a 'non-technical' person could adapt these Hornby signals to change the direction of the 'swing' to 'downwards'? A cursory glance doesn't seem to me this would be that easy. I am also aware that the Hornby models themselves are not correct representations in their style of 'post' anyway for LNER but again, modeller's 'license' tolerable within this context.

The other part of this is the Ratio LNER Lattice Post signals kit 486 which I'm planning to fit to Ratios 478 Pratt Truss gantry kit (and they do need to update their instruction sheet for kit 478!) which I see on the 486 instruction pages illustrates them all as 'Upper Quadrant'. There will be 3 of these eventually so have a chance to get these more correct (LNER wise) but again, before I start are these adaptable to 'Lower Quadrant'?

Any help, suggestions, comments, as usual gratefully welcome.

Graeme Leary
New Zealand
Trestrol
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:48 pm
Location: Earsdon Grange signal box

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Trestrol »

LNER standard was upper quadrant. Lower quadrant were from pre-grouping companies. As new schemes came to pass then they were replaced by upper quadrants.
Mickey

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Mickey »

This is just a rough guide.

On the GNR section of LNER (Kings Cross-Shaftholme Jn) from before pre-grouping days and on through the 1920s-1940s had primarily used somersault signals with upper quadrant signals becoming common from the 1940s & 1950s onwards although there was still GN somersault signals around at various locations. On the former NER of the LNER (north of Shaftholme Jn-York-Newcastle and northwards beyond) that railway primarily used NE lower quadrant signals since before pre-grouping days and on into LNER days with upper quadrant signals becoming common during the 1940s & 1950s onwards although there was still NE lower quadrant signals around at various locations. On the GE section of the LNER (Liverpool Street-Cambridge-Kings Lynn & Liverpool Street-Ipswich-Norwich) had primarily used GE lower quadrant signals with upper quadrant signals becoming common from the 1940s & 1950s onwards although there was still GE lower quadrant signals around at various locations.

LNER signal posts. There was several types of signal posts which were used either wooden posts, lattice (iron) posts & concrete posts.

Mickey
Graeme Leary
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Graeme Leary »

Thanks TRESTROL and mickey. Looks as though my Hornby semaphore signals will be quite acceptable but maybe one other matter you could help with.
The Hornby posts are all a cream colour but photos suggest they (allowing for dirt and weather) were a clear white. Any comments please on this (and I would leave as Hornby made them but more to do with the correct colour to paint the 3 Ratio gantry kits and the other kit semaphores to be added to them).
Pedantry alive and well south of the equator!
Graeme
Trestrol
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:48 pm
Location: Earsdon Grange signal box

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Trestrol »

Yes posts should be white. There is a superb preserved lattice bracket signal on the Great Central Railway. Can't remember the location but a trawl of the internet should find it.
2512silverfox

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by 2512silverfox »

For all practical and modelling purposes, I use a very very pale grey instead of white otherwise the signals, veh roof etc look far too stark!
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Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Just how white was new white gloss paint in the 1930s anyway? If we're considering the time before paints such as ICI Dulux Brilliant White with titanium dioxide pigment in a synthetic or semi synthetic resin, are we actually considering the colour of a paint produced using a less brilliantly white pigment (lead white?) in a distinctly yellow liquid? Maybe paints whiter than "Old English White" would be possible, but how good a white would they be?

It would be interesting to know what the truth was.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
exile
LNER N2 0-6-2T
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:58 pm
Location: France

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by exile »

Were they still using lead based paints or had they moved on to Zinc? Still the same problem but zinc was more stable than lead but still prone to discolouration over time.

A s an academic discussion, it would be interesting to know.
Graeme Leary
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Graeme Leary »

Thanks all - and also spoke to my local (ex Yorkshire) guru living here and he confirmed the light grey would give a realistic effect for modelling but this would in fact represent the 'weathered' look on an originally white painted post. Having just discovered that 'weathering' is not that arcane an art I've decided to repaint my Hornby semaphore models in white and then 'splash' some watery greyish/black over the posts.
Robbie (my aformentioned contact here) also suggested that the height of the black on the models I have should be the equivalent of about 5 feet above the ground (higher than Hornby represent theirs) and I'd welcome any other comments out there.
Graeme
burnie
GNSR D40 4-4-0
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Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:47 pm

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by burnie »

I guess it depends where the signals are positioned, I am using the excellent "Main Line Lament" by Colin Walker to prompt my failing memory, my modest layout is loosely based on the Great Central in the late 1950's early 1960's period. Some of the images in the book show soot and dirt right up to the top of the posts and on the semaphore itself. I have a very small number of images I took myself, but are mostly on holidays and are either LMS or Western region images.
Graeme Leary
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Graeme Leary »

Thanks all for earlier replies.

Next stage is where to position (to an 'acceptable' level anyway) the semaphores (in a LNER/Grouping era context) so pencils out everyone.

I have 2 parallel tracks (one 'up' and one 'down' say) coming into/leaving my main 2 platform station. The platforms have 4 tracks between them - the 2 inside straight through and the outer 2 'stopping' each against a platform) ) and the 'up' splits into 2 tracks, one stopping at the platform, the other 'express/non-stopping' through, and it is reversed for the 'down' track with an added 'split' leading into the other side of the same platform. ie I have 3 stopping tracks at my 2 platforms with 2 non-stopping trains passing between the stopping tracks against the platforms; total of 5).

Would/could it be more or less correct to have a gantry with 5 semaphore arms covering all 5 tracks (roughly at each end of the platforms) with the 'up' track having 2 arms being 'home' at the approach end gantry and 'starter' at the other end of the station gantry; and the reverse on the 'down' line but with 3 arms (as the tracks divide into 3)? This would result in the gantry having the 2 'ups' facing one direction and the 3 'downs' facing the other. Would this have been normal/possible practice?

My reading is limited to Peco's booklet 'No 22 Signalling the Layout 1: Semaphore Signals' and their Plan 3 on p7 is the closest to my situation but with the 2 additional 'through' tracks between the 2 stopping platform tracks which join back on to the 'up'/'down' 2 main tracks). In their instance no mention is made of gantries but I surmise these could be appropriate (as outlined above) covering my 5 tracks. As well, there would be 'distant' signals on both the 'up' and 'down' tracks situated some distance before the station. If so, in my situation, would the 'up' be a 'double' 'distant' (ie with 2 arms to indicate the division at the station into 2 tracks -stopping and through) and the 'down' have 3 semaphore arms (as this track splits 3 ways at the station)?

Look forward to any comments (if you can wade through the above)!

Graeme (New Zealand)
davidbird
NER Y7 0-4-0T
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:04 am

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by davidbird »

Unfortunately Graeme, you gantries will not work in the way you suggest.

This is simply because the signals need to be before the points that they are protecting. Thus at the down end of the station you will have 3 starter signals more or less at the same position at the ends of the platforms, beyond which the tracks will converge to the single down mainline. Assuming your platforms are opposite each other and the up line splits at the same position as the downs converge, further out still you will have a (up direction) double bracket signal for the up fast and up slow lines.

You can still use your gantry for the 3 down platform starters if you wish.

Here's a quick mock up of the down end of your station
Stationview.jpg
I've included an 'advanced starter and a 'outer home', which you may not need.

As to the distants, remember that you will need at least a quarter mile between the distant and the home, this is over 5 metres in '00' scale. Very few modellers have the luxury of enough space for distant signals. If you are one of those lucky people, and can put in distant signals, you will only need a single arm signal. This is because any train not taking the through fast line will have to slow down and almost certainly stop. At some point it will encounter a stop signal on, so any distant provided for the platform lines would never be off. It is much simpler to only provide a distant for the fast line and just leave it on for any divergence.

If you do want to have distant signals, this is probably a more achievable idea. The next 'box's home signal is less than the 1/4 mile away. In this case your 3 platform starters on the gantry will be "combined" signals ie. with a distant arm under the home arm on the same post, the distant arm is "slotted" so that it can only be off if the starter and the next box's home are both off. This is a much better way of getting distant signals realistically within the limited space most of us have.

Here's an alternative view of the layout, with the next box shown at the rear of the freight train.
stationview2.jpg
In this the down fast distant is still on, as the home for the next box is also on. The next box's starter (by the brake van of the freight train) is also a combined signal, with just one distant even though there is a choice of route.

Another thing to consider is just what goes on in the station. Is it only ever through (and stop-and-go) trains? Or will you have shunting, attaching/ detaching vehicles or changing locos? This adds a another layer of complexity onto the track layout and signalling...

Hope this is of some use.

David
Graeme Leary
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Graeme Leary »

Very many thanks David - a very clear explanation of what I should be doing (and appreciate you being able to make sense of my rather laborious description of what I am trying to achieve). Tomorrow morning, New Zealand time, right into it.
Graeme
PinzaC55
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1375
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 2:36 pm

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by PinzaC55 »

The Ratio Pratt truss gantry is based on LMS practise. It's a long time since I did any modelling but when I did, I cut the curved ends off the gantry and put in diagonal pieces to make it look more like an NER McKenzie and Holland gantry.
Graeme Leary
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Semaphore Signals

Post by Graeme Leary »

Thanks for that tip PinzaC55 - will do as you suggest.

However another question to do with Ratio's 478 Truss gantry. When I bought this kit I was told that their 486 (LNER Latticed Post Signals) was to be used to fix to the top of the truss gantry. I am now working on the 486 kit which has a range of various semaphores but I cannot locate any indication of amount to cut off these lattice posts to get the correct overall finished height when fixed to the gantry. I did line them up against a couple of Hornby signals (their R171 and R169) to see if this could indicate the finished height but I had also been told by another (ex UK) modeller here that the Hornby heights were not to scale so none the wiser. (Even though not lower quadrant signals for my period of LNER as advised, I presume this not relevant but I'm leaning towards a reduction in lattice post height that would allow a lower semaphore blade to swing down and still be clear of the gantry top).
Any comments gratefully accepted.

Graeme Leary,
New Zealand
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