Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

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kateAK
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Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by kateAK »

John Dickman was hanged in 1910 for the murder of John Nisbet on a train in Northumberland. During my research I believe I have found the train that would have been used on that route, Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive, which was built by the North Eastern Railway at the Gateshead works in November 1906. The route the train took was from Newcastle Central Station to Alnmouth Station.

Is the Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive is the train I am looking for?

Do you know if there are artefacts of this type of train in a museum? Or do you know if there are any of these trains still intact somewhere? (It is my understanding that when this locomotive was discontinued in 1949, they were sent to BR’s Darlington works, North Road to be broken up.)

Finally, if, as I think I am right in assuming that there are no D20's left, which might be the closed locomotive that I can view at a musuem, or even better, ride on a heritage train ride, such as https://stephensonrailwaymuseum.org.uk/ ... rain-rides.#

Thanks! :D
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52D
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Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by 52D »

Kate post is in wrong place Richard the moderator will move it later. I know about this case and among my models i do have a class D20, sadly none were preserved. Where did you get the information regarding the engine and do you have its number. Alnmouth and its parent Shed Tweedmouth were the last homes of the D20s. The D20s or to quote there original NER R classification were a very fast and popular class of 4-4-0 tender locomotives. Ken Middlemist a former Alnmouth man has many stories to tell about his father who like my grandfather drove these magnificent locos.Was the murdered man a wages clerk if so i hve read a bit about the case.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
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Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by Hatfield Shed »

There's no operating NER design 4-4-0, but - in 'better news' - there is at least a preserved specimen of the NER's related R1 (LNER D21) class in the national collection. When last I saw it, it was in the 'NRM Locomotion' main hall and looking very splendid, although rather too crowded in by other exhibits for a stand back and admire. Hint. The staff at NRM Locomotion are apt to 'put out' in response to special requests when the museum is quiet. Time your visit well (early, midweek), ask nicely, and footplate access can often be obtained.

More here: https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d21.php
drmditch

Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by drmditch »

Hatfield Shed wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:06 pm There's no operating NER design 4-4-0, but - in 'better news' - there is at least a preserved specimen of the NER's related R1 (LNER D21) class in the national collection. When last I saw it, it was in the 'NRM Locomotion' main hall and looking very splendid, although rather too crowded in by other exhibits for a stand back and admire. Hint. The staff at NRM Locomotion are apt to 'put out' in response to special requests when the museum is quiet. Time your visit well (early, midweek), ask nicely, and footplate access can often be obtained.

More here: https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d21.php
Not quite sure what Hatfield Shed means here. The NER 4-4-0 in the National Collection is a D17/1 No.1621 (NER Class M), and looks very splendid in NER green. The D17/1s were built some 8 years earlier than the D20s (NER Class R) , This was one of the engines used in the 'Race to the North' in 1895. It does have an Alnmouth connection, since it was shedded there from 1927 until it was withdrawn (and preserved) in 1945.

At the moment (or at least as of last Thursday) it was quite visible at NRM Shildon. It's not often used for footplate visits, because there isn't a lot of space, but I always make the most of it when I can. The best engine in the museum! (Apart from the V2 that is!)

Of course, if Hatfield Shed knows where there is a D21 - then that would be quite fun! Perhaps he could tell us!
(I think the hope that somewhere in a deserted building somewhere in County Durham someone might find a 'mislaid' locomotive is one that many of us share! I would rather it be a C6, or even a C7, though rather than a D21!)

In relation to the originator's request for a train that might resemble one from the early 20th Century, then perhaps , for a local train, the Tanfield railway presents the best option. Not as regards locomotive power, but they have a collection of interesting coaches. I'm not sure where the Beamish's ex-NER Clerestory is at the moment. I did ride in it when it was at Tanfield a few years ago.

.... Tanfield Website here.....
...... and Beamish here....
kateAK
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Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by kateAK »

52D wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:15 pm Kate post is in wrong place Richard the moderator will move it later. I know about this case and among my models i do have a class D20, sadly none were preserved. Where did you get the information regarding the engine and do you have its number. Alnmouth and its parent Shed Tweedmouth were the last homes of the D20s. The D20s or to quote there original NER R classification were a very fast and popular class of 4-4-0 tender locomotives. Ken Middlemist a former Alnmouth man has many stories to tell about his father who like my grandfather drove these magnificent locos.Was the murdered man a wages clerk if so i hve read a bit about the case.
52D It would be great to speak to Ken if he knows about the area, I am currently looking to speak to some local social historians/people who know about the social history of the time. For example were the trainlines, mainly the Newcastle to Alnmouth route I discussed, close knit communites of colliery workers?

Yes the case we are looking at is John Dickman who murdered John Innes Nisbet in 1910. Nisbet was a colliery cashier and he boarded the 10.27 train at Newcastle Central Station. He was carrying a bag containing £370 in wages for the men who worked at the Stobswood Colliery, in Northumberland. He never made the delivery. Nisbet’s blood-spattered body was found stuffed beneath a carriage seat by porter Thomas Charlton after the train pulled into Alnmouth, on the Northumberland coast.
kateAK
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Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by kateAK »

I have spoken to someone at the NRM Shildon and was told that the D17 is the closest resembling train to the D20. So we are definitely hoping to visit that train.

I don't know much about trains, is the D21 more similar to the D20 than the D17? (If it does happen to exist like Hatfield Shed mentioned).

That is very interesting. I will take a look at the Tanfield railway and the Beamish's ex-NER Clerestory.

Thanks!
drmditch

Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by drmditch »

I hope this forum is being of help to you.

By-the-way - most people on here will distinguish between a 'locomotive' or 'engine' which is the machine (usually steam powered on here), and the 'train' which is a set of vehicles, either passenger coaches or goods tracks and vans, which is hauled by the locomotive!
(Of course, just to be difficult the whole thing, loco and coaches, can sometimes be referred to as a 'train'.)

The D17 (NER 'M') is probably a bit closer in looks to a D20 (NER 'R'), the main difference being that the 'R' had a slightly larger diameter boiler.
From the point of view of the murderer (and the victim) the coaches would have been more significant than the locomotive. Most railway companies (including the North Eastern Railway) did not encourage visitors and/or passengers to ride on the locomotive! Not that that it didn't happen of course, but drivers and firemen would not want to be reported to Mr Vincent Raven, who could be quite fierce!

On almost all steam-hauled trains it was not possible to move from passenger coaches to the locomotive, at least without desperately clinging to the outside!

Of more significance would be whether the train was made up of 'corridor' coaches, where there is a connection for people to move between the vehicles, and 'non-corridor'.

The line from Newcastle to Alnmouth is part of the main-line route from Newcastle to Edinburgh, so some of the fast main-line trains on the line would have been made up of corridor (or to be fussy 'vestibuled') vehicles. However, many of these would not have stopped at Alnmouth, let alone Widdrington which was I believe Mr Nisbets destination. In the first part of the 20th Century there were a large number of local services, stopping at smaller stations. Alnmouth was the junction station for Alnwick, and had it's own engine shed, and locomotives based there worked a lot of local trains, both to Newcastle and to Alnwick.

I've just checked my library, and the NER Northern Division Passenger Working Timetable for 1908 shows a 10:27am Newcastle to Alnwick, arriving at 12:20pm. Is this your train? If so it was a local train hauled by a locomotive stationed at Alnmouth Shed. This gives rise to to two further points.

In 1910 the R class was still very much a main-line engine, and unlikely to be used on a local stopping train, unless it was 'filling in' between other duties.No 'R' was stationed at Alnmouth until 1938.

The second point is that this train (assuming it's the right one!) was probably not made up of corridor vehicles. The majority of NER local trains at that time were made up of non-corridor stock. The best of these were the 52' Clerestory vehicles such as the one based at Beamish:-
Beamish.jpg
Each coach was divided into separate compartments,each with a door on each side. In most coaches there was no way to get from one compartment to another. Some of them however, did have an internal corridor allowing passengers riding in the different compartments to have access a lavatory. Passengers not in such coaches just had to cross their legs!

There were still a lot of older coaches in service in 1910, and some of the examples at Tanfield may give a better idea of these.

Most preserved railways use ex-British Railways corridor vehicles with lavatories - which will not give quite the same experience!

This forum does have a lot of knowledgable people, so someone may have more information than I do, but I'll look through my library some more.

I presume you have seen these articles:-

.... from the British Transport Police...

.... more discussion......

.... Evening Chronicle
(This makes reference to a book available on Amazon.)


By-the-way, I volunteer at Shildon, so if you PM me I might be able to help with access to the D17.
Daddyman
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Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by Daddyman »

Re the point already made about the difference between train and locos, Kate, there are another couple of inaccuracies in your terminology. The D20/2 classification was introduced in 1936 when a member of the class was rebuilt in order to give it different cylinders (much cosmetic work was also done), and another couple of locos followed. While Yeadon (Yeadon's Register of LNER Locomotives Vol. 35) refers to the other members of the class as "part 1" (i.e. D20/1) from that point on, I'm not sure if that classification was ever used - either by the railway authorities or by publishers. Regardless of that, my point is that there was no such thing as a D20/1 in 1906 - or even a D20: you should use the NER classification of "R" as the LNER only came into existence in 1923.

The other point is that, despite what many railway publications - and posts on the internet - would have you believe, there is no apostrophe on loco classes when referred to in the plural (D20s is right; D20's is wrong).
kateAK
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Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by kateAK »

drmditch wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:56 pm I hope this forum is being of help to you.

By-the-way - most people on here will distinguish between a 'locomotive' or 'engine' which is the machine (usually steam powered on here), and the 'train' which is a set of vehicles, either passenger coaches or goods tracks and vans, which is hauled by the locomotive!
(Of course, just to be difficult the whole thing, loco and coaches, can sometimes be referred to as a 'train'.)

The D17 (NER 'M') is probably a bit closer in looks to a D20 (NER 'R'), the main difference being that the 'R' had a slightly larger diameter boiler.
From the point of view of the murderer (and the victim) the coaches would have been more significant than the locomotive. Most railway companies (including the North Eastern Railway) did not encourage visitors and/or passengers to ride on the locomotive! Not that that it didn't happen of course, but drivers and firemen would not want to be reported to Mr Vincent Raven, who could be quite fierce!

On almost all steam-hauled trains it was not possible to move from passenger coaches to the locomotive, at least without desperately clinging to the outside!

Of more significance would be whether the train was made up of 'corridor' coaches, where there is a connection for people to move between the vehicles, and 'non-corridor'.

The line from Newcastle to Alnmouth is part of the main-line route from Newcastle to Edinburgh, so some of the fast main-line trains on the line would have been made up of corridor (or to be fussy 'vestibuled') vehicles. However, many of these would not have stopped at Alnmouth, let alone Widdrington which was I believe Mr Nisbets destination. In the first part of the 20th Century there were a large number of local services, stopping at smaller stations. Alnmouth was the junction station for Alnwick, and had it's own engine shed, and locomotives based there worked a lot of local trains, both to Newcastle and to Alnwick.

I've just checked my library, and the NER Northern Division Passenger Working Timetable for 1908 shows a 10:27am Newcastle to Alnwick, arriving at 12:20pm. Is this your train? If so it was a local train hauled by a locomotive stationed at Alnmouth Shed. This gives rise to to two further points.

In 1910 the R class was still very much a main-line engine, and unlikely to be used on a local stopping train, unless it was 'filling in' between other duties.No 'R' was stationed at Alnmouth until 1938.

The second point is that this train (assuming it's the right one!) was probably not made up of corridor vehicles. The majority of NER local trains at that time were made up of non-corridor stock. The best of these were the 52' Clerestory vehicles such as the one based at Beamish:-

Beamish.jpg

Each coach was divided into separate compartments,each with a door on each side. In most coaches there was no way to get from one compartment to another. Some of them however, did have an internal corridor allowing passengers riding in the different compartments to have access a lavatory. Passengers not in such coaches just had to cross their legs!

There were still a lot of older coaches in service in 1910, and some of the examples at Tanfield may give a better idea of these.

Most preserved railways use ex-British Railways corridor vehicles with lavatories - which will not give quite the same experience!

This forum does have a lot of knowledgable people, so someone may have more information than I do, but I'll look through my library some more.

I presume you have seen these articles:-

.... from the British Transport Police...

.... more discussion......

.... Evening Chronicle
(This makes reference to a book available on Amazon.)


By-the-way, I volunteer at Shildon, so if you PM me I might be able to help with access to the D17.
Hi drmditch

Thanks for all that information, that is really really helpful. Yes the train we need was the 10:27 from Newcastle, which did stop at all the smaller stations, SO that would suggest that you are right that the 52' Clerestory was the carriage. Would the NER Class R not have been the locomotive hauling the 52? (as you said no 'R' was stationed at Alnmouth until 1938). Would it be possible to find out the locomotive hauling the train?

I will contact Beamish to find out more about the 52' Clerestory they have.

I have already contacted someone at National Railway Museum, both Shildon and York. I was told there is a similar looking carriage at York (East Coast Joint Stock, 3rd Class railway carriage, 1898), but the image I was given and can see on the website is a diagram, and the carriage seems to have a corridor, which seems not to be the one used in our case?

Thanks!!
drmditch

Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by drmditch »

Firstly, this thread is definitely in the wrong place! Perhaps some one who can should move it to somewhere like 'Locomotives and Rolling Stock' or 'General LNER Discussion'

Secondly, here is a 'phone picture of the NER Class M (LNER Class D17/1) at NRM Shildon yesterday!
Post_D17_01.jpg
Although not quite in the condition it would have been in 1910 it does give a good idea of what an Edwardian/Georgian engine would have looked like when there was time and money to keep engines looking clean and smart!

Thirdly, I'm, afraid that information from the NRM can sometimes be a bit patchy, depending on who you talk to, and of course what questions you ask! The ECJS Coach referred to looks like this:-
Post_ECJS_07.jpg
(Sorry you can't see the clerestory roof very well, but this was a quick picture taken for other purposes and I've reduced it in size a lot so as not to take up too much space on this forum.)

However, this is most definitely not the sort of coach that would have been used on an NER local train in 1910! This vehicle was built for East Coast Joint Stock, which was a co-operative venture between the Great Northern, North Eastern, and North British railways, to provide prestige coaches for running from London to Edinburgh, over the tracks of all three railways concerned. The Great Northern and North British would not have been happy if the NER had used one of the joint vehicles (even if only third class) for a minor local train in Northumberland, especially one which might be used by those dirty miners!

Also, ECJS coaches were finished in varnished teak, as in the splendid example above, but the NER passenger stock was painted in maroon/crimson lake/other descriptions are possible!

When I have a moment, I will try to look up more information for you, but most of what I have will come from secondary sources. (The Working Timetable data I quoted above comes from Bartle Rippon's book 'The Alnwick Branch'. It is possible that Carriage and Loco Rosters for 1910 might survive. But unless someone else on this forum can help it would need a request to the NRM, probably to use their 'Search Engine'. I've not yet done this myself, but perhaps someone else can help you.

The North Eastern Railway Association (NERA) is more likely to have information of the sort you want. It's website is ...here...

By 1910, the NER had eliminated the very old four-wheel coaches, and even it's minor trains ran on two four-wheel bogies, like the Beamish example. However, there were other cheaper-to-construct coaches, without the clerestory roof which I suspect might be more likely to have been on your train.

As for locomotives, Where did you get your information about the R (D20) ?

There was an M class No.1637 allocated to Alnmouth in 1910. According to Yeadon's Register it was allocated there immediately after it's construction at Gateshead in 1893. Whether this locomotive was the one allocated to your train I don't know. I would suspect that an older, slower engine might have been used, but at the same time it was a train running on the main line so it would have to have been fast enough and reliable enough to keep it's 'path' in the timetable and not delay all the important trains!

I must get back to building my railway, but I will try to find some more information for you later. I'm also back at Shildon later in the week, but the information you want is unlikely to come from there. NERA is a more likely bet.

The Tanfield Railway does have a number of older NER coaches, in various stages of restoration, and I really must make another visit there soon.
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52D
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Re: Class D20/1 4-4-0 locomotive - Newcastle to Alnmouth in 1910

Post by 52D »

Mr Ditch i suspect a Waterbury a 1493 or something similar as train engine.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
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