Hornby Pullman coach bogies

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Graeme Leary
GNR C1 4-4-2
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Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by Graeme Leary »

Does anybody know if Hornby produced 6 wheel bogies that could be used to clip in and replace the 4 wheel bogies on their standard production 8 wheel Pullman cars (with metal light pickups preferably) and if so where would they be available from?, assuming of course the profile was correct for a 12 wheel car.
Graeme Leary
New Zealand
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teaky
NBR D34 4-4-0 'Glen'
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by teaky »

Wouldn't they stick out at the ends?
jwealleans
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by jwealleans »

It depends where they pivoted them. It’s quite a common dodge on models to offset the pivot point.

I know nothing about them, but were some of these rebogied onto 4 wheel bogies later in life?0
JASd17
LNER A3 4-6-2
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by JASd17 »

Given the different body shape at the ends of the 12-wheel cars that ran on the LNER in the late 1920s, it would be a compromise, even if the bogies could be swapped.

John
Manxman1831
NER C7 4-4-2
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by Manxman1831 »

Hornby 6-wheel bogies used to be available as spares - differs whether they were for the LMS Dining Car, or for the Pullmans - from the usual places. They were of the clip-in type.
Brian

Anything weird or unusual will catch my interest, be it an express or locomotive

I'm also drawn to the commemorative, let's hope Bachmann will produce 6165 Valour.
Phil
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by Phil »

Hot news from the loft (good job its raining and little else to do) is that it cant be done. Measurements as follows using comparison between Hornby K type (other 8 wheel Pullmans have the same dimensions as the 'K') and Hornby 12w type.

On the 'K' coach body the distance between the bogie pivot and the outer face of the coach buffers is 44mm. On the bogie the distance between the bogie pivot (at the mid point between the 2 axles) and the bar on the tension lock coupling is 48mm.

On the 12 w coach body the distance between the pivot and the buffers is 50mm. The pivot point on the bogie is central with the middle axle and its distance to the tension lock coupling bar is 53mm.

Swapping the 4 wheel bogies on the 8 wheel car car model for 6 wheel bogies from the 12w one would increase the distance between the cars by 10mm (scale 2' 6") even if the other clearances permitted the swap. The limiting factor is the length of the turnout arms for the close coupling mechanism which would have to be swapped at the same time.

This might not be welcome news for anyone contemplating such a swap but I hope it helps to avoid unnecessary expense.

Phil
Graeme Leary
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by Graeme Leary »

Thanks for all your responses - due to these 'measurement' issues, I think my best course of action will be to continue trolling ebay and hope I can come across another 2 x12 wheel kitchen cars (picked up one on ebay at an eye-watering price) and a 12 wheel Brake. Only regret is that I was unaware of the 12 wheel cars as essential components of the WPR express when I was in the UK 8 weeks ago - every model shop would have been visited, not just about 20 of them!

Now, anybody thinking of retiring from the hobby with any 2 of Hornby's R4476, R4420, R4384 and an R4477 to spare? - I have the transfers and other accoutrements to make necessary changes to 3rd kitchen 49, 45, 51 and 1st Brake 'Cambria'.

Graeme
Phil
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by Phil »

I have located 2 x R4476 and sent you a pm (I hope you get it - I have never attempted this before)
Graeme Leary
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by Graeme Leary »

THanks Phil for your pm - it did arrive but can't find it hence reply through Forum.

Have the 2 R4476 on the way out from Chelmsford plus one bought other bought on ebay arrived yesterday. The Brake 3rd 12 wheeler (R4477) is proving more of a problem and missed out on ebay bid - trouble with nighttime here and daytime over your way. Great service from John Dutfield and they're keeping an eye out for a R4477 for me.

Comparing the 4 wheel bogie and the 6 wheel bogies models, to a layman like me that 4 mm difference you mention is not so obvious but pleased I didn't tackle trying to get 4 or 5 pairs of the 6 wheelers and swap over. Then, I'm sure it would have become very apparent.

Thanks again
Graeme
earlswood nob
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by earlswood nob »

Good morning all

I am following this thread with interest as I have ideas of making a Pullman train for my LBSCR class L 4-6-4T (shhhhhh, but it used to travel through Earlswood on the Southern belle).

I have three Hornby type K Pullmans, picked up cheap, and they run very well. However, the bogies are 2mm too short (scale 9'6" instead of 10'), and the wheels are slighlty undersize.

I think the 12 wheel bogies were made of wood and were 12' wheelbase. I don't know the wheelbase of the Hornby bogies.

Earlswood nob
Phil
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by Phil »

Looks like you are in luck EN. Hornby 6 wheel Pullman bogies have 48mm wheelbase :D
AVSRailwaysUK
NER Y7 0-4-0T
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Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by AVSRailwaysUK »

I realise I'm rather late to the game here, chaps, but I'm afraid that the 4 and 6-wheel Pullman bogies aren't a straight swap for several reasons, the first being that the bogie centres differed by a few feet, and it is quite noticeable unless the bogie pivot point is relocated on the chassis (12 wheel cars typically had their centres at 41' centres).

Secondly, the diagrams and car sides differ massively between the post-1923 K types (as represented by Hornby, in both their wooden body and later all-steel 1928 formats). Any LNER operated 12-wheel Pullmans tended to be ex-GER, with a small smattering of ex-Southern cars reallocated. For a fairly accurate representation of the GER 12-wheel brake cars Cambria and Arcadia, I converted a 00 Graham Farish Pullman Brake, substituting the undertrussing with shorter examples (really they ought to be tiebars in brass rod), and I used Hornby 6-wheel bogies plugged into some salvaged 'sockets' from an old Railroad carriage. If I were to redo this project I'd probably use the 247 white-metal bogies which I do intend to use on further 12-wheel car builds.
Amelia Anne with lights!.jpeg
I did have to cut some sections out of the chassis in order for the bogies to turn, but this was no real issue. Replacement buffers will come from Wizard/Comet, although for an earlier iteration of the car one could use 3D-printed GER buffers for this particular car with oval buffer heads.

I did also compile a quick document for a friend a short while ago, they model East Anglia in the late '30s and I can supply it upon request.

Otherwise, back to Pullman bogies - the 10' 4-wheel bogie became standard in 1923, prior to that, an equalised 'American' bogie, typically 8', was used on all Pullmans aside from those which were 12-wheel cars, which were either carried on Fox-type, straight-frame, or the 'American' equalised 6-wheel type. Cars carried on the latter were more common, and the only type to continue into Grouping and BR days. These cars were all-wood construction and subject to much alteration through their lives. Any cars on the straight-frame 6-wheel bogie were ex GNR (since we're talking LNER), and I believe all withdrawn by the Grouping. The equalised 'American' 6-wheel bogie became standard in the 1890s (I believe) for all new-build 12-wheel Pullmans due to its better riding qualities, however it was more involved to maintain due to being constructed from metal-clad heavy timber.

The all-steel cars offered by Hornby, now in their Railroad range, are eminently bashable into other car types if one has the patience and temerity to continue - plenty of planked plasticard, micro-strip and sandpaper will get you there!

I hope that was useful for some of you.
Graeme Leary
GNR C1 4-4-2
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Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Hornby Pullman coach bogies

Post by Graeme Leary »

Very interesting seeing this topic revived. My reason for enquiring back in 2017 about 12 wheel bogie Pullmans was that The Pullman Society had very kindly sent me rosters for the West Riding Pullman and a 1938 7 carriage roster I decided to replicate had 4 12 wheel Carriages (3 x Third Class Nos 45, 49 and 51 and 1 x Brake 1st 'CAMBRIA').

I did manage to find all 4 of these 'hen's teeth' carriages and with getting rid of the RTR numbers/name and judicious use of Fox Transfer's products have produced what is I hope a fairly accurate representation of the WRP that worked in June 1928. However, there might well be some minor inaccuracies that any eagle eyed modeller would pick up (but I'll take that risk).

Graeme Leary
New Zealand
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