Open goods wagons

[Graeme Leary]

I have just bought on our ebay equivalent (trademe) a rake of 11 open goods wagons that I am trying to identify the company that operated so I can number correctly (obviously I'm hoping they were NE, or one of the other LNER constituents). I had been told they were Parkside Dundas kits but there are varying details under some of the wagons. My references are to Tatlow's 'Pictorial Record on LNER Wagons' and briefly they are:-

7 appear to be same length at the 20 ton 8 plank Loco Coal Wagons (as p129) except they are 'flush' (all -steel ???) - not planked side, have 2 hung doors each side and the ends have more detail than the Tatlow and there is a 'lip' that runs around the entire top of each. Of these 7, 5 have plain bases and with slightly less pronounced 'lip' and less end detail (these might be the Parkside Dundas kits); and the other 2 are marked Hornby underneath (with a wider 'lip' and more end detail).

The other 4 are shorter and seem to be equivalent to the single door 'all steel' 13 ton open wagon on p23 (but again more end and single hung door detail than the Tatlow shot. One of the 4 has Mainline undeneath, another Triang and any detail under the other 2 has been covered by superglued on lead weights.

I'd be grateful if someone could confirm what these might be and, more particularly if they were wagons that I can fix NE (or the like) and relevant numbers (and even a clue as to what these running numbers could be).

I also picked up for the first time the expression 'sleeper wagons' in Tatlow (p136/7/8). Probably bleedin' obvious but can I presume they were designed primarily to carry sleepers; if not only that, were they also a general goods wagon?

Many thanks from the colonies.

Graeme
New Zealand

PS: Had hope to attach a photo but striking problems in this regard - hope description is enough

[Hatfield Shed]

We definitely could use pictures to be more positive in offering identifications!

As for Sleeper wagons, I would like some insight to their use. Could they be employed as general goods stock, for loads not sensitive to the creosote contamination that is mentioned? ? If so they would have to be located and moved when the civil engineers department required them.

[Graeme Leary]

Fair comment Hatfield Shed. Over the long weekend I'll see if I can drag myself into the 21st century and learn how to post photos, particularly these to start with.
Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

Herewith photos of the wagons mentioned. Hope you can identify for me. Many thanks.
Graeme

[jwealleans]

The 16T mineral looks like a BR one, most likely the D1/108 which was most common. The LNER steel mineral has no top flap above the side door and is riveted.

The loco coal is a Parkside and you can get away with that on the LNER from the late 1930s - Tatlow will give you dates and numbers.

[drmditch]

If the 16t mineral is one of the 9' wheelbase ones, perhaps it could represent one of the LMS ones. (I'd have to check the diagram.) The LMS would have painted it bauxite though.

[Hatfield Shed]

Fair comment Hatfield Shed. Over the long weekend I'll see if I can drag myself into the 21st century and learn how to post photos...

Bit rich coming from me, haven't even got a digital camera! (Lost interest in photography when Kodachrome was discontinued.)

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks all and bearing in mind I only have Tatlow's 'A Pictorial Record of LNER Wagons' (and I understand he has published others on LNER wagons) could the following be acceptable:-

The shorter of the 2 wagon type models I have be as the 13 ton all steel open wagon (as p23/24; plates 41/42. (My models have detailed side doors and the Tatlow plates are quite plain and there are also 'dimples' in the body sides - use as explained in the text but which could be 'made up').

Or (possibly at a 'stretch') the 16 ton steel mineral wagon p56/plate 113 (this is 16 ton but appears higher by comparison plus has a rather prominent angled extension above the buffers at one (both??) end.

And could the LONGER of my models be the 'acceptable' as p127/Plate 274 (page described as GE Loco Coal Wagons - 20 ton). This photo appears very close to my 7 longer models except the facings either side of the 2 side doors extend to the top of the side - the photo only as far as door height.

If not covered in the Tatlow I have, I do intend to look for his other publications in the UK next month and has Tatlow (or some other author) also published an LMS wagon equivalent for even more accurate identification?

Graeme

[Hatfield Shed]

RJ Essery, an illustrated history of LMS wagons I think in three volumes, is what you want.

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks Hatfield Shed. Chasing it/them up with our local library otherwise added to my shopping list.
Graeme

[jwealleans]

Essery is two volumes, I believe - recently republished in softback and much more cheaply than the sought-after original edition.

Which Tatlow do you have? Apart from the more recent reworking into 5 volumes, there was initially a light blue edition which was then revised and republished in a brown/maroon cover by Pendragon.

[UpDistant]

Graeme

From the photos and descriptions you have provided, the following information should help to clarify what you have bought.

The "long" wagons , as shown in the photo, are LNER diagram 207 21T Loco Coal wagons, 1200 built at Shildon in 1947 (not 1930s as in Peco/Parkside info), E300315-301514. These are the subject of Parkside kit PC31. Note two pairs of cupboard doors per side, no top flap, no end doors. This type is not illustrated in the single volume Tatlow.

The other "long" wagons, marked "Hornby" are likely to be GWR 20T/21T mineral wagons. These were built to various diagrams, basically to the same overall dimensions but with differing arrangements of end doors; diagram N.24 and N.31 - two drop doors per side and two end tipping doors; diagram N.27 - two drop doors per side, no end doors, and with DCIII brakes; diagram N.34 as N.27 but with lifting link brake gear; diagram N.32 - as N.27 but with two drop doors per side and only one end tip door. None of these had top flap doors. Additionally, they were all classed as mineral wagons - GW Loco Coal wagons had much smaller drop doors. Most were built for use in South Wales.

The "short" wagon, as shown in the photo, is a BR diagram 1/108 16T mineral wagon. But, depending on its age and origin, it might be a compromise. Early manufacturers, such as Mainline, stretched the body to fit existing 17'6" over headstocks, 10' wheelbase underframes. 10' wheelbase minerals did not appear (as BR diagram 1/194) until 1975 and these were rebuilds with new bodies on recovered vacuum braked underframes. Therefore, the bodies of your short wagons should be 16'6" over headstocks - 66mm, wheelbase 9'0" - 36mm.

As JW has stated, the LNER 16T mineral had a riveted body, no top flaps and a very shallow lip on the top of the bodyside - kit C10 available from Cambrian. The LMS preferred to call their similar 16T minerals End Door Wagons, these came in three diagrams; D2106, a prototype (M616000) built 1945, welded construction, no top flap, end door, and a thick top edge as per BR 1/108. D2109, 2599 wagons built 1946-7, slight modification to the side door stanchions but otherwise as the prototype. The doors, both side and end, could be either fabricated or pressed into various shapes - Cabrian kit C8 covers these. The last diagram, D2134, 3500 wagons built 1949 but numbered in the LMS series, came in both welded and riveted versions with top flap doors. The welded version was virtually identical to BR 1/108.

Peco now have a fully illustrated pdf sheet of Parkside kits on their website https://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/F ... 20copy.pdf and, if you haven't already found it, Paul Bartlett's photo site is definitely worth a look http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulba ... lwaywagons.

Unfortunately, it now seems that all your purchases are outwith your modelling period/area.

HTH, John

[DS239]

Graeme

The "short" wagon, as shown in the photo, is a BR diagram 1/108 16T mineral wagon. But, depending on its age and origin, it might be a compromise. Therefore, the bodies of your short wagons should be 16'6" over headstocks - 66mm, wheelbase 9'0" - 36mm.

Graeme, the 16T wagon in your photo is a Triang/Hornby one, they aren't very accurate, 64mm over body and 38mm wheelbase, [see what they should be above] as well as having a buffer height about 2mm over scale, if I were you, I'd sell them on ASAP..

[Graeme Leary]

I have been away for a couple of days and thought I'd acknowledged the replies, but appears not. Many thanks for comments and suggestions.

Updistant: Re the 'long' wagon (the model you identify as LNER diagram 207). My single Tatlow volume doesn't show this so unable to see how the numbers and other identification were positioned. I presume N and E would have been on the outside left and right panels, the E........ possibly low down on the left side. Probably '21 TON' and smaller NE letters also in place somewhere; possibly these and the E....... numbers all above one another on the left, or maybe spaced out over the 3 (non-door) panels. On some other photos of coal wagons the word COAL also appears - would that have been the case for diagram 207 and where situated - maybe somewhere in the centre panel? Any comments very helpful.

DS239: In light of your suggestions (and Updistant's comments) my 4 'short' wagons will be disposed of, however as drmditch comments they could represent the LMS wagons (in bauxite), this could be an acceptable compromise. If not, I have a friend who is modelling the BR period in Scotland in the 1960s/70s and he might be happy with the odd discrepancy, particularly if GWR style wagons ended up in his domain at that time. If not they could blend in on the coal yard of my local club layout - most of the club member's are American themed so have even less clues than me!

Now to work on my Fox Transfers requirements.

Graeme

[UpDistant]

<t>I've dug some more information up on the diagram 207 wagons. Although to an LNER design and ordered in 1947, ALL these wagons were built by BR between 2/48 and 11/48, so NONE would have carried NE lettering. There is a builders photo in Tatlow volume 4A of E300831, dated May 1948, showing BR style lettering in white directly on to body colour - no black patches. E300831 and 21T at bottom LH side, tare weight bottom RH side, and LOCO in a larger size at the top of the centre panel. Later variation would have black patches under all the lettering, some having LOCO above the number/21T in the same size. Loco coal wagons from all origins were quickly absorbed into the general mineral fleet. On Paul Bartlett's site (see previous post for link - it's under LNER Minerals) there is a photo of E300654 dated 04/06/1977 taken at Toton which shows the code COAL 21/21T/tare weight (metric) and number in the post-1964 "boxed" style but with LOCO on a black patch still visible at the top of the centre panel.</t>