Mystery Locomotive

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KipB
NER Y7 0-4-0T
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Mystery Locomotive

Post by KipB »

Can anyone tell me what this loco body is meant to be? And therefore what chassis it ought to have.
mystery tank loco e.jpg
It is 4mm scale. I bought it at a toyfair at Sandown Park Race Course. It is made of tinplate, soldered together. It came with another similar loco body, which is clearly a Thompson L1. Both bodies are roughly the same size and length. To help visualise it, I have sat it on top of a Triang Jinty chassis. That suggests that it should be a 2-6-4T or a 4-6-2T, or a 2-6-2T at a stretch. It is clearly LNER in character, but I am not aware of a large tank loco with the curving uplift to the footplate. Any ideas?

Kip
majormagna
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by majormagna »

It looks like a Gresley V1/V3 that's had part of its running plate lowered for some reason...
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Hatfield Shed
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Hatfield Shed »

It certainly is a V1/V3. Compare to the reference here. https://www.lner.info/locos/V/v1v3.php

Looks pretty decent, although the boiler cladding bands are 'emphatic'.
Atso
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Atso »

It looks a bit like the P3 2-8-2 might have been that Graeme King constructed a few years back (obviously not Graeme's as he made his out of a Bachmann V3).
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Hatfield Shed
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Hatfield Shed »

A sensibly arranged 4'8" 2-8-2 mechanism looks so natural under a V1/V3 body. The body is a foot shorter overall than the outline proposal for a 2-8-2T, but in model form of a loco which was never constructed 'will do'. In my lightly fictionalised BR(ER) set up a few did get built and one is allocated to KX to solve the ECS traction problem mentioned by Peter Townend in 'Top Shed' (and for which he requested trial of a GW 2-8-0T). The 'home grown' product with 200 psi and 17" cylinder diameter is a 34,000 lb TE RA5 unit, and fully up to the job.
KipB
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by KipB »

Thanks guys, for your thoughts. The V1/V3 likeness is obviously the closest, but the Gresleyan curve in the footplate is the mystery. The most obvious explanation is that it is a piece of modeller's fantasy: but I can't think why anyone would spend so much time and trouble building such a model. Where did the modeller get the idea from? Did he have any drawings or photos to work from? etc. That set me wondering whether it was part of, say, an original design for the V1 which was rejected in favour of the straight footplate. Then again, when the body is perched on a Hornby Dublo A4 chassis, it looks the part - the footplate drops down over the front bogie, with the cylinders between the bogie wheels. So was there a plan in the late 1930s to build an updated development of the A5 with external valve gear (for which the A9 designation was allocated) as a big brother to the V1, but which was never built?
And I hadn't thought of the 2-8-2T scenario, so thanks for that.
Whatever it was intended to be it looks as though it is going to end up as a fictitious loco, and I am leaning towards the A9. Other ideas or information still welcome.

Kip
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

STA74936 P10 vs V1.JPG
See RCTS Locos of the LNER Part 10a.
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Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
Hatfield Shed
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Hatfield Shed »

Have now been able to look at the outline drawing of the proposed Gresley 2-8-2T. It had the ogee curvature in the forward footplating, as the model body does. For me that suggests this is what the builder was looking at when it was constructed.

Edited to add: and there's handsome, as Graeme's model so well demonstrates.
Pebbles
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Pebbles »

John Edgson's model of the P10 didn't include the upsweep of the footplate, but a splasher. When I asked John he assured me that he had followed the "Doncaster" drawing.
KipB
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by KipB »

Atlantic 3279, your magnificent model obviously solves my mystery, and confirms my feeling that it isn't just a variation of a V1.
So my loco body is intended to be a model of the neverwas P3, seen here sitting on an 8F chassis
Mock up P3 e.jpg
Thanks for your help in identifying it. Where do I look for more information about the P3, and particularly, where do I find the outline drawing of it mentioned in Hatfield Shed's post? I presume that the version with the splasher is the one that is pictured in the thread "Does anyone know of any proposed designs that were never built?" (viewtopic.php?t=10993)

But then again, it also looks pretty convincing as an A9.
Mock up A9 e.jpg
So it is a pity that I don't have a second body to have one of each!

Thanks again, guys.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

My reference was the RCTS book mentioned above, Part 10A, pages 52-53 Notes) and 60-61(drawings). It indicates a projected P10 classification for the loco, keeping tank engine classifications well separated from tender engine designs as happened with some other types.

I believe John Edgson did some of the drawings for those books, so the matter of the splasher surprises me. The RCTS drawing of the final scheme definitely shows the raised running plate, hence I built my model that way, ignoring the arrangement I'd seen on the model that had partly inspired me, in a 2009 Vectis auction catalogue:
P10 Vectis lot 3380 Sep09.jpg
Does Pebbles recognise this as the one that John Edgson built, by any chance?
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
Pebbles
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Pebbles »

I believe that this is John's work and whilst he displayed his handy work often they were on loan from their then owners. This model was offered at auction some years ago after the death of the owner who I think was an Optician. Another "borrowed" loco was a B17/5. Owned by the same individual, and nothing to do with John, an "O" gauge P10 that used a William Ascough V3 kit as a basis was also auctioned.
Hatfield Shed
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Hatfield Shed »

The outline drawing I referred to may be found in Haresnape's 'Gresley Locomotives'. side elevation only. Cheap and easy to find!
Pebbles
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by Pebbles »

In addition to the Haresnape book; pages 52/53 and 60/61 of RCTS Part10A go into some detail of the design's evolution with supporting outline drawings Also Page 89 of "The Gresley Influence" by the late Geoffrey Hughes gives both outline drawings and supporting details.
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kimballthurlow
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Re: Mystery Locomotive

Post by kimballthurlow »

KipB wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:07 pm .....
But then again, it also looks pretty convincing as an A9.Mock up A9 e.jpg ......

Thanks again, guys.
The upsweep of the running plate looks far more natural on the 4-6-2 chassis.
For reasons that the larger driving wheels required it.

Kimball
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