Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

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Graeme Leary
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Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Graeme Leary » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:38 pm

Having been unable to find my early posting on this have started anew to clarify some points. (Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was my triplet kit but making some progress). However some clarification/suggestions/direction requested please:-

(1) Wheels: In Nick Campling's 'Historic Carriage Drawings' (the 'orange' book) - he shows 2 sets, on p46/7 'Set 1' & p48/9 'Set 2'. The wheels in Set 2 are very obviously white but, maybe a trick of the light, Set 1 not obviously so (and the Rest 3rd 'close-up' photo on p46 clearly doesn't have white wheels).
The drawings on both sets show the 16491/2/3 number groups so seems to discount the possibility the white (or 'plain') wheel appeared on the 16481/2/3 group. I've put the '16481/2/3 series of numbers on my set (from a photo sent to my by Humourist last March) and from possible reflection of the light on the wheels they could be just well-shined wheel rims even if a couple do look as though they may have been painted.

(2) Kitchen Car windows: Again from same book and pages - Set 1 p46 has very definitely white 'obscured' windows (except for the second to end small window), however, p48 shows the 'other' side, not with a definite white windows but with what could be curtains. Could this have been the case to allow them to be pulled back to let more natural light in for the kitchen staff?

(3) Kitchen Cars - the word 'Kitchen': A different photo I have of the set (kindly sent by 'Humourist) shows the word 'Kitchen' on the 2 small doors on the white/obscured windows side (and same on Set 1 in Nick Campling's p46) but the 'other' side on p48 (Set 2) this is not so obvious, but this is not such a clear photo anyway. However, did 'Kitchen' just appear on the doors on the white/obscured window side? (And is there a 'technical' term for each side of these, or any non-corridor coaches).

(4) Bellows/Door connector covers: All photos I have are 'on an angle' so don't allow a 'straight-on' side look but presume safe to assume there were the bellows style covers between the 3 cars of the set. I can't visualise the waiters having to carry food from the kitchen to either restaurant car uncovered in the open in a howling gale (and yes, do realise these were 'off-set' at the kitchen car ends of the restaurant cars).

Many thanks all, any thoughts gratefully accepted.

Graeme Leary
New Zealand

Quicksilver95
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Quicksilver95 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:58 pm

Having recently acquired some Kirk triplet coach sides I will be watching this thread with interest.
If I might be so cheeky as to add an extra question:
(5) The campling book shows a complex array of wiring on the coach roofs in elevation - but no plan view of this. Any photos/diagrams/information?

Joshua

Woodcock29
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Woodcock29 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:58 am

Graeme

My understanding is that when new out of workshops or after overhaul the wheel rims were painted white - how long they remained so in traffic is unclear.

From a modelling perspective a 'bellows' type gangway is fine between the cars - at least that's what I have done.

The kitchen car does actually have a corridor down the side with the large windows so it would be correct to call that the corridor side and the other the kitchen side. You can see the handrail across the large windows. My understanding is that these corridor windows were not frosted and what you can see in the photo on p 48 of Campling is actually reflection of light, otherwise you wouldn't see the handrail, this view is contrary to the indication on the drawing in Campling but consistent with what Michael Harris said in his book LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. An alternative view would be that they were lightly frosted, ie not as dense as those on the kitchen side, hence it is possible to see the handrail through the frosting.

The question of the frosting is interesting and one I for one, would like to know the full details of in respect to kitchen and restaurant cars. Certainly on some restaurant cars the ventilators appear to be of unfrosted glass but again the large panes may well be simply reflecting light.

The close up photo in Campling is interesting in that it shows how the roof weathers - the very edge is still showing the white to some degree and this is actually what can happen when spraying a white roof dark grey with an air brush so I should actually leave the edges still showing some white in future!

Andrew Emmett
South Australia (or across 'The Ditch' to a Kiwi!)

Dave
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Dave » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:11 am

Morning Graeme.
I will confirm in a email later but to be going on with.

1: My understanding was the rims were painted white so any cracks would show and was not a decorative device, and it became dull in service, I don't believe it was renewed between shopping, any further info welcome on this.

2: Glass was white to the kitchen and defiantly not curtains, some glass was opaque (frosted) on the corridor side on some carriages as Woodcock29 says, photos will tell you. The D10C I made had white on the kitchen side and opaque on the corridor side according to the photos. The LNER did not want the plebs looking into the kitchen. Again check photos as top vents/lights should be clear on the corridor (public) side.

3: Further to the info I sent you which you refer too, I have checked and the doors were labeled Kitchen to both sides as far as I can ascertain. This is because the doors to the Kitchen car were not for the public to use. If you look at the Kitchen GA drawing I sent you, you will see that the doors are noted as "flush door catch to open with carriage key" this is the key as they say. So you model must not have any external door handles on the Kitchen car.

4: The drawings and photos I sent you show the covered connections, but I have this photo (not sure where/who I got it from so apologies for no name) which might help.

Andrew, again photos will confirm but most top vents/lights were clear in opaque glass to corridors, and white to staff sides/kitchens, note staff toilet and rest area windows were not white, but clear or opaque as required.

Hope this helps.
Attachments
TRIPLET (3).jpg
TRIPLET (4).jpg
triplet connection.jpg

earlswood nob
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by earlswood nob » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:47 am

Good morning all

The Kirk set is of the 1928 triplet, with the Kirk standard undeframe. The original had turnbuckle truss underframe.

The 1924 triplet had recessed doors.

The 1938 triplet had a longer kitchen car.

Comet models (now Wizard) produce a floorpan for the 1928 set which improves thing considerably.

Wizard also make Comet Heavy bogies, which were fitted as the articulation bogies either end of the Kitchen car.

MJT also produce the Heavy bogies and a very good articulation system.

Earlswood nob

Graeme Leary
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Graeme Leary » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:22 pm

Thanks all (and Andrew good point about keeping some white on the edges which had thought about doing anyway and will play around a bit to get the opaque roof vents look Dave lists once the roof colour acceptable).

But another 'issue' - working on fitting interior of kitchen car and whilst I commented in the original post that I was aware of the doors being 'off-centre' I was looking at the way my 'sides only' Comet kit has been produced. At each end the flat' portion, where it would seem the doors are meant to be fitted are set quite close to the right side (irrespective of which way you look at it) so are at a shallow angle lengthways to each other. (And the restaurant car ends are made to line up with these).

However Nick Campling's 'orange' Historic Carriages book (on the kitchen car floor plan p49) also shows them 'off-centre' but only very slightly and actually IN LINE with each other along the car length and therefore in the same position at each end.

Have I misinterpreted something (and not the end of the world) but which is correct - the Comet kit or the floor plan drawing? (Sorry Dave, haven't been able to track down the file with the drawings you sent over many moons ago).

Graeme

Woodcock29
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Woodcock29 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:19 am

Hi Graham

I'm not quite sure what part you are referring to when you say the flat portion - do you mean the end of the coach?

Nick Campling's drawing is surely correct. I have a similar drawing (but not the same) of the Dia 13 Kitchen car in the Harris book LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. The gangways at the end of the kitchen car are offset so they are closer to the corridor side of the carriage - which seems entirely logical to me.

My Kirk 1928 triplet, built back in the 1980s is like this.

Regards

Andrew

Dave
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Dave » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:29 pm

Graeme.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, I will have to check my Comet triplet etches when I get home tonight,
but the 1924 and 1927 GA Kitchen drawings I have show the doors as...
on plan from the 3rd class carriage (north end) the door is on the left of the centre line (it overlaps the C/L
by 3/4") on plan from the 1st class carriage the door is to the right of the C/L. So on the Kitchen car plan, both doors are
opposite and in line with each other.
Does this help ?.
Attachments
IMG_0081.JPG
IMG_0084.JPG

Graeme Leary
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Graeme Leary » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:52 pm

Hi Woodcock and Dave,

Sorry for lack of clarity.

I did mean the ends of the cars supplied in the 'sides only' Comet kit. The ends have ribbed/raised surfaces, obviously intended to replicate 'beading' that covers the joins between full height 'one-piece' teak panels. The 'flat' area I earlier mentioned area that can only be where the door 'projections' are to be fixed and on the kitchen car are definitely not in line with each other along the length of the kit. (The same raised/ribbed and off-centre flat part of the 'kitchen car' ends on the 2 restaurant cars are likewise off centre to line up with the kitchen car itself).

(I did have a horrible 'middle of the night' thought that I'd put one of the kitchen car ends on 'back to front' but the inside of each end (4 in total) are all plain so relieved to see that in the morning).

No good at posting on forum but will email shot over to you Dave and if you're happy to let me have your emails address Andrew will get over to you - just about a 2 hour time difference between us but the Brits will/ should be all sound asleep.

Graeme

Dave
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Dave » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:52 pm

Graeme.
I have just looked at my Comet etches and the kitchen Car ends have a left and a right hand etch, the
2 dining cars also have 1 left and 1 right hand end so they all match up correctly. With out a picture all
I can think of is you have put the wrong hand end on the wrong end of the carriage.
It's only 9.50 pm here, so not bedtime yet.

Graeme Leary
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Graeme Leary » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:22 pm

Evening Dave, shot just sent direct to you. Hope it (and my interpretation) makes sense.

Graeme

Dave
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Dave » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:33 pm

Graeme,
Got your email and replied.

Graeme Leary
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:07 am

Andrew, just had clarification from Dave - all my fault, assembled the kit with 2 ends in wrong place. Was it Homer Simpson who always said 'doh'?

Graeme

Dave
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Dave » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:40 am

Don't worry too much it is easily done, I will be very careful with mine now, and mark the ends, I have already
marked the kitchen floor pan so I know where I am. The difficulty I find is transferring the underframe plan to an upside down floor pan.

Woodcock29
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Re: Restaurant triplet set - 'finer' details

Post by Woodcock29 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:08 am

Graeme
I wondered if you had done that. All good - a lesson for all of us in building artic sets, where ends are not all the same!

Andrew

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