Oxford Rail J27 announced

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adrianbs
LNER J39 0-6-0
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by adrianbs »

Hi Folks Certainly wagons and coaches are the poor relatives for RTR compared with locos but in this increasingly non kit building age it seems somewhat pointless producing locos of pre-group origins with nothing for them to haul in their earlier liveries. Perhaps the collectors market is now so dominant that few people actually want to run authentic freight or passenger trains. In the case of the NER, a single well designed chassis would give 4 different wagon diagrams if the appropriate types were selected. All reached the BR period so liveries and numbers can be rotated for years.

...We have already seen Oxford produce the little 4 plank NBR wagon although it was so atrocious only those simply wanting boxes on wheels for their locos to pull would have had much use for them. The pity is we now unexpectedly have an NBR loco announced but still nothing of comparable quality for it to haul. In many cases the last pre-group wagom designs are a rich source of wagons with standard underframes and long lives and give far more variety than the post '23 designs. Personally I have had more than my fill of brightly painted PO wagons, almost all of which are ridiculously unauthentic even if the base wagon happens to be a real prototype, which it rarely is. I appreciate the Toy Train market must take precedence but when 3 or 4 manufacturers all make the same unauthentic livery on inaccurate "PO wagons" it does make one despair.

.... The J.27 hardly "fills a gap" as it is the immediate predecessor to the O.8.O locos which the Q6 represents. A smaller mixed traffic 0.6.0 would have been better or a small passenger tender loco. Few people are ever likely to want to kitbuilt long rakes of coaches or wagons and suitable RTR models are most unlikely. The local stopping passenger or pick-up goods made from kits is about the likely limit for most modellers. The 30 wagon plus NER/LNER heavy mineral, usually with a variety of wagon designs is not going to appear on many layouts unless as club projects.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

That logic seems sound Adrian, but I suspect it will be lost on the main RTR manufacturers. We're getting what we're getting, which I presume is regarded as better than nothing.
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adrianbs
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by adrianbs »

Hi Folks I am afraid you are right Atlantic but it would be nice if, instead of spending huge sums on new loco tooling which unfortunately duplicates, triplicates, or worse, existing locomotives, that some of that money went into producing some really accurate groups of everyday wagon types. Do we really need a "Boche Buster", especially an inaccurate one, or another Dean Goods which is hardly more accurate than the 40 year old version. It is bad enough that many very important post '23 wagon designs are missing. Worse still is the fact that until towards the end of the Big 4 period, pre- group wagons outnumbered post group types with almost nothing to represent that era. There were about the same numbers of company owned wagons on the tracks as POs for all that time. Goods trains were not all made up of coal wagons and, those that were, often consisted of blocks of wagons from a single colliery. Worse still and shock horror, Rail blue era diesels did not haul rakes of clean brightly coloured 8. 10 and 12 ton coal wagons !!
JASd17
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by JASd17 »

Few people are ever likely to want to kitbuilt long rakes of coaches or wagons and suitable RTR models are most unlikely. The local stopping passenger or pick-up goods made from kits is about the likely limit for most modellers. The 30 wagon plus NER/LNER heavy mineral, usually with a variety of wagon designs is not going to appear on many layouts unless as club projects.
The North Eastern Area of the LNER is an interesting place, for those of us who like modelling. There is no such thing with regard to basic infrastructure, each NER Division went its own way.

It is the same with carriage sets in the LNER times. Each division of the NER could still be picked out in carriage formations well into the 1930s.

If only a local stopping passenger train or pick-up goods, from the 1930s, could be modelled using R-T-R stock, we are miles away from that.

That does not cover the many corners of the LNER that NER non-corridor stock actually ended up being cascaded to.

I would make the case for a Clerestory D18 BT(3), a Clerestory Composite, and a full third of any NER type, although D178 or D14 for preference, in terms of numbers. One could then mix and match to produce some kind of NE Area train.

I do not claim the above would produce an accurate train, but it would be a great start. The D18s could be seen on express services in the NE Area into the 1930s, so could be put in trains alongside LNER Corridor stock.


To refer to the OP directly I do not think many railway modellers today are up to trying any sort of kit. Maybe 3D printing will rescue them, in due course?

John
Horsetan
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Horsetan »

JASd17 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:17 pm.... I do not think many railway modellers today are up to trying any sort of kit. ....
With people living longer, you'd think they'd have more patience. Apparently not!
exile
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by exile »

A large part of the problem is the way the market is structured.

Leaving aside the collector issue - which I think is quite probably significant, those of us who purchase the "mass market" models find some quite nice offerings regarding locomotives but as already said, frequently no stock to run with them. Those of us who would correct that are forced to buy kits - frequently out of production and second hand or at best difficult to source - or scratch build.

So when the Dapmannby rep comes to your local model shop (or internet retailer) and asks what is selling, the answer is locos, lots of locos. S they make more locos.

Vicious circle that one day will hit the buffers - but when?

Regarding collectors however it is worth considering that a number of them would be more than happy to buy wagons and coaches to maintain their collection. Perhaps the ones we should beware of as distorters of the market are the purchasers/ acquirers of "pretty" and "prestigious" models.
STAFFORDA4
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by STAFFORDA4 »

As just a bloke who loves owt that’s LNER and particularly North Eastern I’m over the moon we’re getting a J27.....
as well as a G5
I’ve got no interest in trying to build either one myself and never thought I’d see the day such locos would become available.
Good luck to you chaps who can manage it but “bring it on”
And thank you Oxford Rail and TMC for sticking your necks out and wallets on the line
Eric
Albert Hill
LNER N2 0-6-2T
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Albert Hill »

Judging by exhibitions and magazine pictorials are not the majority of NE modellers representing the BR period or LNER/BR transition rather than back to NER times, their wagon and coach requirements being related.
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Autocar Publicity
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Autocar Publicity »

But couldn't that be a chicken and egg situation? If there's not the locos and stock, there's less incentive for 'the average modeller' to go down that route. Yes, I know there's the kit-building/scratchbuilding options but some of us prefer to stay predominately RTR, maybe with a bit of detailing and/or weathering. Personally, I am not afraid of building kits, but they take a lot of time and right now I'm seriously short of that.

Another (personal) disincentive is painting the kit when it's built. BR unlined black's easy, I think even I could manage that. But a lot of pregrouping locos & stock had colourful, complex liveries. Yes, many of us probably could reproduce these eventually - but the necessary investment in time, tools and skill is likely to be seen as too prohibitive. I don't fancy spending several years doing little more than build and paint locos, overcome the emotional scars of poor results and get up to RTR standard, when most of the locos (and stock) I'd want are available RTR - I'd sooner spend the time elsewhere.
Greedy Boards
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Greedy Boards »

Hi there

came across this thread this weekend, and note some of the comments made. J27s did go out of the NER region between 1926 - 1942, and were shedded at Ardsley, Cambridge, Grantham, Langwith Junction, March, New England, Peterborough East, and Retford.

Speaking as a Teessider, the J26/J27 0-6-0 did not do the work of the Q6 0-8-0, as the former could manage the tighter curves of the many coal mines and steel works that proliferated in the Region, whereas the Q6 could haul longer rakes of mineral wagons. The reality is that both locomotives operated very well out of the same sheds, complementing the work done by each other.

When you look at a freight haulage shed such as Newport (51B) near Middlesbrough (51D), Newport had 41 x J26, plus a single J27 in 1954. It also had 14 x Q6, and 32 x WD 2-8-0s.

Regards

Greedy Boards
North Eastern Matters
Nova
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Nova »

Following up on my initial comment, looking back on the respective Q6 and J27 pages on this site I was rather pleased to discover that a fair number of both were allocated to Hull (both sheds) and Selby, the latter being the next station up the line from the location my layout is set in, so that makes me a very happy chappy, I like to be able to justify any locos in my fleet, as it makes me more likely to use them.

To keep the thread more on topic, I'm wondering if OR will follow up with a J26, presumably the chassis were NAMND identical, so financially speaking it makes sense to produce another loco which shares some of the toolings
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
Greedy Boards
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Greedy Boards »

Subsequent to Nova's comments, I wonder if there is any real external differences between the J26 and J27?

Certainly the P2/J26 class started out with circular spectacle windows for the cab, but 22 out of 50 were converted to larger window cabs used on the P3/J27 class. There was also some variation in the domes, and boilers, but the latter were interchangeable, and you could see J26s with a P3 boiler, and J27s with a P2 boiler. Essentially, I believe that the main differences were all internal, with the number of tubes differing in the boiler, and the angle of the fire grate.

Apart from changing the cab windows to the circular porthole design, I don't think that much else would need to be done.

Any comments greatly appreciated.

Regards

Greedy Boards
North Eastern Matters
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

As far as a "never been superheated" J27 (i.e. most of them) is concerned the visible differences from a J26 would only be apparent to a very well informed, very close observer of very detailed models.
All of the "saturated as built" locos, all J26s and the majority of the J27s, initially had round spectacles.
By1923, shaped spectacles were a feature of all but one of the J27s and were also present on a substantial number of J26s. Round spectacles are not therefore necessary if you wish to call a model a J26, and if your model is provided with round spectacles then that almost obliges it to be a J26.
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Pebbles
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Re: Oxford Rail J27 announced

Post by Pebbles »

If the preserved J27 has been used as a basis for the model there may be issues. LNER 2392, was renumbered 5894 in 1946 and subsequently 65894 by BR - as 2392 was built in September 1923 2392 it was always a LNER engine. Importantly it was initially a superheated engine and as such would originally had an extended smokebox. Whilst superheating was removed in 1963 and the smokebox shortened it would appear that it has retained the lengthened frames and the different piano front specific to engines initially equipped with a superheater. When built 2392 would have had a tender with revised frames the frame cut outs being oval in shape rather than a "D". The relevant sections of RCTS Part 5 give an initial starting point and, if they can be obtained, instructions from Dave Bradwell's J27 may well be of assistance. Differences between the J26 and J27 may in some cases be far less than those between individual J27 engines.
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