Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

This forum is for the discussion of railway modelling of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard

Post Reply
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by kimballthurlow »

Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.
The Hornby model 0-6-0 (J13/LNER J52) saddle tank locomotive (examples R396 (1247), R2971 (1250), R2186 (1241), and R2400 (LNER)) has been around for a long time. I am interested in its guise as a Great Northern Railway engine and the following information beckoned (or tempted) me to have a go at creating a dome-less variant.

The J13 (originally GNR class M6) was preceded by over 100 0-6-0 engines of the saddle tank type. The M6 was a H A Ivatt batch of 52 engines from 1897 just after he was newly installed as locomotive engineer. Of this number, 7 were built without domes in the style of Ivatts’ predecessors. These were firstly the only two Doncaster builds #111 and #155, and then of those built by outside contractors, the Neilson and Co engines #1211-1215. Diagram is of #1213. (Reference The Locomotives of the Great Northern Railway, by G F Bird, publ. 1910).
Diagram of #1213 Sharp Stewart
Diagram of #1213 Sharp Stewart
This model has 57” drivers (close enough) and the correct frame dimensions. In all it took me about 3 months from planning to completion. I started with a GNR decorated version (R396 #1247 a Sharp, Stewart and Co build of 1899). It was far easier for me than having to do all the lining and lettering, though I did change the number. The diagram suggests that the top handrails were lower on the tank, but I did not modify that. This domeless version had the leaf springs protruding through the splashers, and I have yet to figure out how such a modification would be achieved. Suggestions are welcome. As pointed out in subsequent posts, the cab roof may likely have been the earlier domed style as favoured by Ivatts predecessors, but that would be a major task.

The modelling requires the removal only of the saddle from the main body, thus limiting what is being handled. The tank filler cap was re-positioned, and I sprayed Humbrol #131 over the new work but masked the original side lining and lettering. The safety valve cover is a rather botched scratch job (the original was probably a third taller), but it will suffice for now. The whistle and handrails were refitted in the original positions.
GNR No 111
GNR No 111
In doing the re-build, I realised there is potential for this model to be used as a basis for a number of variables, including a condensing version and one or two of the GNR tender engines from this period. If I do other rebuilds, I will also look at doing the cab overall green which was a sometimes GN feature. I notice that Hornby pleasantly do variations of the J13, with some having more sophisticated lining and colouring. Overall I find it to be an excellent model and certainly worth the money, as there are many available second-hand.

You can see from the photo how this Doncaster dome-less variation turned out. I rather like the idea of having a few different engines that can poke around the collieries and sorting sidings of 1910, and be just as useful at the home station on pick-up goods or cross-country transfers.

Kimball in Brisbane
Last edited by kimballthurlow on Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Dave
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1679
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Centre of the known universe York

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by Dave »

Nice conversion, but you have the rods on upside down.
john coffin
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by john coffin »

Interesting project, however NONE of the Ivatt rooved saddle tanks were ever delivered without Domes.

All the domeless engines had Stirling cabs, whilst Ivatt cabs were not retrofitted when the boilers
were enlarged.

Also remember that the wheel base is wrong, being based on a Jinty frame.

But please keep up with the work it looks fun.

Paul
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by kimballthurlow »

Thank you Dave, I never noticed the rods.
It came second hand, one buffer missing etc etc.

Kimball
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by kimballthurlow »

john coffin wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:24 am Interesting project, however NONE of the Ivatt rooved saddle tanks were ever delivered without Domes.

All the domeless engines had Stirling cabs, whilst Ivatt cabs were not retrofitted when the boilers
were enlarged.

Also remember that the wheel base is wrong, being based on a Jinty frame.

But please keep up with the work it looks fun.

Paul
Hi Paul,
Quote from Bird: "It is possible that these engines were in reality built to the Stirling specifications, though dated as late as 1897".
If Bird was unsure in 1910, then who are we to say.
Bird's diagram certainly shows the cab for the Ivatt period, and not the earlier style.
Whereas Bird's diagram for the M4 of 1892/3 shows the rounded style of cab upper, with a lower access height.
Yes undoubtedly when undertaking these sorts of modifications, there is so much that is wrong, or compromised.
But as a model it has it uses.
Actually, I find this sort of work rather stressful (the usual stuff like cutting off too much, paint bubbling etc.) and I used to do lots but gave up 10 years ago, and thought I would try something small - that's a laugh.

Kimball
Hatfield Shed
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by Hatfield Shed »

Neat variant. This is one of those dated items from Hornby's list that though inaccurate, does have a lot of the appropriate character. It's a shame it has Hornby's 'universal mechanism', equally inaccurate in every application. (Instead of scale for 'Derby Standard' 8'+8'6", this was made 31+33mm. The GNR followed Crewe's 7'3"+8'3" for most of its existence. Usefully, Swindon did the same once news of the right gauge to use had got through to Wiltshire, which means that accurate 0-6-0 loco models of their products can supply suitable mechanisms. With a little finagling the current Bach 57xx mech goes into the J52 body very neatly. Then you have to decide whether or no to move the splashers to match the now correct wheelbase. I haven't!)
john coffin
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by john coffin »

The interesting thing about research today is that you often have access to more data than contemporary
sources did, especially when dealing with the railways before Grouping. Although the engineers shared information
about various problems, rarely did they let much of become widely available to the public.

Bird was published twice before the First War, and there were definite differences between the two versions,
not least because he was trying to include more Ivatt stock. In this century it has been reproduced as a paper-back,
which has a number of flaws, and shows that proper research was not done during the update.Remember that the data
available to Bird was likely to have been quite restricted, and we do not know how much input to the final volume the
executives at the GNR had.

However, there are also at least 3 more sources of information which are more accurate,
RCTS Vol 8A of the "Green Books",
RCTS Locos of the Great Northern, vol 2 and of course Yeadon.

All agree that there was some carry over during the period between Stirling and Ivatt, but that was covered by 111 and 155 which
were "hybrid" locos in that they had a Stirling cab but a solid metal front buffer beam, and springs above the footplate. These
carried their Stirling cabs until scrapped. Certainly the basic details of the saddle tanks was carried forward by Ivatt the cabs certainly
were not, none of the last 52 locos were built with Ivatt cabs and no domes.

The model looks ok for a "fun" project, but had your assertions been true, then over the last 30 or so years, other modellers might
well have made the same conversion, and I do not remember any such.

I have no wish to stop people modelling and creating something interesting, but do not want too much speculation to change the
facts.


Paul
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by kimballthurlow »

Thanks HS for your comments.
I feel one of the features that easily dates models like this one is the lack of daylight under the boiler.
But one has to be sensible about these things. The result may not justify the time and effort, nor the expense which is measured for me in degrees of frustration and blasphemies.

Kimball
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by kimballthurlow »

Thanks Paul for adding to the explanations on the variations in the Stirling-Ivatt carry over period.
I can certainly defer to your broader access to material, and I thank you for it.
Certainly in my position it can make for a satisfying (by all means use the word fun) project to choose a source and work with it to completion.
Now if I was to use one of these Hornbys for a tender engine .......
But that will be on the back-burner, due to the mandatory period of letting myself down gently by running trains round and round.
Kimball
john coffin
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am

Re: Hornby J52/J13 as a GNR engine losing its dome.

Post by john coffin »

Hi Kimballthurlow.

The reason for my intervention is to ensure that someone else does not take your thoughts as gospel,
and it becomes "FACT".

However if you are running trains, then I agree that what you have built is a great thing to allow
you to replicate something that no one else would have, and I am sure it runs pretty well.
Remember the old rule, can you see it from 18 inches???

Since you are living with the solid boiler, why not????

Paul
Post Reply