Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

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Graeme Leary
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Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:52 am

Off on another 'express to model' tangent and as I have a Hornby P1 'Cock -o- the- North' model which is shown in Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines' working 'Aberdonian' therefore of interest. (I also have an ex Aberdonian mate - and a modeller - who would be chuffed. I would also consider renaming/renumbering my P2 to 2002/Earl Marischal which was allocated to Ferryhill, Aberdeen where he started his BR career' although a little later than my Grouping period).

Yeadon's notes explains that 'THE' Aberdonian title did not come into use until 1946, later than the Grouping period I'm interested in and, being Yeadon, I presume there would be no disputing that fact.

That aside I have only a limited idea of what the 'Aberdonian' formation would have been in the mid 1930s on when P1/2002 worked the express, other than it contained sleeping and restaurant (maybe buffet?) cars and photos suggest they were all teak sets. Regrettably I did not take notes of the 'Aberdonian' formation when I had borrowed Banks and Carter's 'LNER Trains and Formations' so would be grateful if someone could provide details of a 'typical' set (if there is such a thing) around the mid/later 1930s.

Another Yeadon's photo (of 2002/Earl Marischal) shows coach roof boards and would a rear coach tail board have been carried?

Many thanks.

Graeme Leary
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:21 am

PS to my last. Goofing around Dr Google I have found Steve Banks references to Aberdonian. However, would be grateful if there is any additional information that forum members might consider worth adding.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Seagull » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:40 am

Hello Graeme,

I have carriage working lists for 1932, 1936 and 1939. The 1936 and 1939 only differ in one carriage diagram number anyway so here is the 1936;-

Aberdonian 1936 19:40 from KingsX Saturdays and Sundays excepted
1 BG Gresley 61' 6" corridor luggage van 8' Gresley bogies Dia 45 Aberdeen 163 - 1927/8 34 163-193
2 Twin SLF Gresley 113' 6" twin 1st/ 3rd sleeper Dia 161/162 Lossiemouth 1183/4 431 1932 2 1183/4, 1185/6
3 SLT Gresley 61' 6" sleeper third 9' 0" wide Dia 95 Aberdeen 1241 278 1928 10 1241-56
4 SLF Gresley 66' 6" sleeper first Dia 157 Aberdeen 1165 430/537/601/670 1932-1936 9 1156/7, 1165-68, 1211-14, 1591/2
5 SLT Gresley 66' 6" sleeper third 9' 3" wide Dia 148 Aberdeen 1336 426 1931 10 1336-44, 1346
6 SLT Gresley 61' 6" sleeper third 9' 0" wide Dia 95 Aberdeen 1241 278 1928 10 1241-56
7 CKL Gresley 61' 8' cor compo (2½f 5 th) 9' 0" wide (1st class comp @ N end) Dia 7 Aberdeen 158 115 1926 12 151, 154-8, 162/3, 183, 1061-66
8 BTK Gresley 61' 6" cor bk. 3rd-3 compts 9' 0" wide (Brake @ S end) Dia 40 Aberdeen 114 112 1926 12 112-5, 138-40, 142/3, 145-8, 150
9 RU Gresley 61' 6" restaurant car ( 5 bay) Dia 11 York 42783 391 1931 1 42783
10 BG Gresley 61' 6" corridor luggage van 8' Gresley bogies Dia 45 Aberdeen 163 - 1927/8 34 163-193
11 BG Gresley 61' 6" cor luggage van (1924 stock) Dia 43 Dundee 140 43 1924 7 140-146

As usual north is at the top.

The numbers underlined are the actual carriage numbers specified for the service - always remembering that substitutions could be made. The numbers in bold are the 'class' numbers - a certain type of carriage was listed but not a specific carriage number. In practice the sets would normally be made from the same carriages for a period of several months and would only change when there were substitutes for maintenance or if extra carriages were added at busy periods. The blue numbers at the end of each line show; order number (not always shown), years built, number built (not always acurate), service numbers (not always a complete listing).

So line 1 specifies a Dia 45 (all steel BG) of 'class' 163 Order No. (not given), years built 1927/8, number built 34, numbers allocated 163-193
So it could be any of the BGs in the number range 163 - 193. You can see that apparently 34 carriages were built and yet there are only 31 numbers allocated!! :?

In the 1939 list carriage no.8 the BTK is shown as a dia 174 and number 1000 562 1934-1935 13 1000-5, 1044-9, 1265
I seem to remember that the Aberdonian carriages were from the 1044-49 range but don't have the note handy to confirm that. That is the only difference between 1936 and 1939. I think the change was made sometime in 1937.

Carriage No.9 the unclassed restaurant is mentioned on the Steve Banks website. It was attached to provide evening meals from KX to York to both classes. It was detached at York at 2321 - the further details of it's movements are on the Steve banks website.

My lists are worked out for the GN section of the ECML so I don't have the details for the NE 6 wheel BG attached at York, again I suggest have a look at Steve Banks website.

With the weight of the sleeper carriages and probably fully laden BGs is it any wonder it needed a 2-8-2 to pull it!

Alan

PS - Just realised I had some carriage workings scanned onto a USB drive with me.
1936 is as shown above
1937 #7 BTK 1076 a dia 34 with 2 x 3rd & 2 x 1st compartments. #8 has been removed from the train. #9 RU 43041 so any dia 11.
(I have ten dia 11 being built but only three numbers - 43041, 42782, 42783)
1938 #7 is again shown as 158 same as 1936. # 8 is still missing. #9 RU still shown as 43041
1939 #7 has now become a dia 7 1061 I think in practice it normally was one of 1061-66 but I suspect the earlier numbers had been cascaded out of the ECML stock by now. #8 re-appears now as a dia 174 1000 as I mentioned above more probably 1044-49. And as mentioned by Steve banks the NE 6 wheel BG from Leeds is now added at York.
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by 65447 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:08 pm

On the general theme of named trains and in particular for details of the various styles of headboard carried, you can do no better than consult Dave Peel's 'Locomotive Headboards - The Complete Story', The History Press 2010 (second edition), 978 0 7524 5599 0.

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:34 pm

Thanks Alan - obviously a 'go-to' person if these sort of precise details are required. Much appreciated and will have a very close look through at my leisure. (Your post confirms I do not need to worry about adding articulating to RTR coaches to get the detail of diagrams 18a/19 as shown in Campling's 'Historic Carriage Drawings - LNER & Constituents. Not an impossible task for an 'all-thumbs' modeller like me but thankful appears not necessary).

65447: Thanks for directing me to Peel's 'Locomotive Headboards' (which I have but had not initially consulted) with its good references to both 'Aberdonian' and THE 'Aberdonian". Helps clear up a few matters.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Seagull » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:48 am

Hello Graeme,

No problem.

As it happens I am trying to sort out the workings for the south end of the ECML for myself but only for around 1937-38.
I realised it was better to do a year or so each side as it gives a better picture so I am working on 1935-1939.

I have about 6 or 7 carriage working books mostly in PDF of which I have transcribed about 25%.
I also have a couple of very fragile WTTs for 1937 and 1938 but I have only managed about 5% of them as they are hard work and very boring to transcribe.

I don't have any sort of copyright on the information so I am more than happy to share it.
However I have really only done the majority of trains for the ECML up and down, plus the GN section principle down workings.

You just happen to keep asking about the ECML trains which are about 90% complete, though there is still the odd error in my transcriptions.
Your question about the Aberdonian highlighted one :)

Re. #2 the articulated Lossiemouth sleeper there were only 2 built, Nos 1183/1184 & 1185/1186.
They apparently only worked opposite each other in this train, so when a set was take out for maintenence each spring they must have substituted a normal 1st and 3rd sleeper as there was nothing else comparable. The other articulated sets (dias EC 68, 18, 18A, 19) were all first class.

The only carriage in the working which was available off the shelf is the Hornby dia 43 BG. Everthing else would have to be DIY or substitutes.

Alan
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am

Thanks again Alan. I had just typed out a reply (with of course, more questions) to your earlier email and I think I pushed 'submit' about the same time as you sent your updated one and mine disappeared - probably lucky you.

Tomorrow morning ( Thursday our time) I will go through both of yours and 're-ask' the many points I'm still stuck on.

Quite a challenge this subject!

Regards,
Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:04 am

Hello Alan, once again my response to (and thanks for) your last email disappeared into the 'ether' - the length may have had something to do with it! I will therefore try and abbreviate this.

I see now there was an articulated pair - the Lossiemouth 'twin' which from my modelling point of view poses a problem. However, due to platform length on my layout I have to run a 'truncated' version, ideally 7 carriages but maybe 8 at a pinch. Adapting your roster, what I'm looking at (and your comments - and any other forum members - very much appreciated) are:-

1. BG Corridor Luggage Van Diagram 45 (chose from Class numbers 163-193)
2. SLT Sleeper 3rd " 95 (chose from Class numbers 1241-1256)
3. SLF Sleeper 1st " 157 (actually use 1165)
4. SLT Sleeper 3rd " 148 (chose from class numbers 1336-44)
5. CKL Corridor Composite " 158 (options but probably from class number 154-8)
6. BTK Corridor Brake 3rd " 40 (close from class numbers 114, using one of the many options listed)
7. BG Corridor Luggage Van " 43 (chose from class numbers 140-146)

My 8th car would probably be the RU Restaurant Car (and this shortened roster neatly gets me out of the dilemma of replicating the articulated twin and I might explain my lack of this twin as you say, when 'there was nothing else comparable'). Hopefully will get it past the odd pedant over here (one in particular!)

Hornby's accuracy in their models leaves a lot to be desired but at a couple of shows I've attended in the UK the comments have been made that generally, their later production is much closer to prototypical. On that basis might it be likely that their R4064 and/or R4174 could be fair replications of the 3 Sleeping Cars with maybe just redoing running and class numbers to suit this roster? (However, I would be 100% sure that their much earlier R430 would be way out like all their R/3 digit models).

The BG you list show 2 different diagrams (43 & 45), and for another express project I've done 'jasD17' advised that diagram 45/Class number 163 is a steel panelled version (which you also have in your roster notes). 'Humorist' also kindly sent me drawings of 9 Brake Vans so the differences between 43 and 45 became very clear which on diagram 45 seem to be mainly no vertical panels above the waist with only the waist having a horizontal raised effect. Spacing of doors (which likewise are plain) seem to be the same or very similar on both 43 and 45.

Before getting this advice from John (and drawings from Dave) I used number 163 on a Hornby R4530 which as you say, is a good depiction of Diagram 43, but as it should be diagram 45, I intend scraping/filing/sanding off these raised mouldings to get the all -steel (flush side) look and repaint/reline where necessary.

Likewise for the 'Aberdonian' diagram 45 I have another Hornby BG, this time their R4531 (the same but produced as 'BR ex LNER Full Brake Coach' - in Crimson) which I will do the same on before painting in the teak finish with the lined look on I presume just the 2 horizontal places (the middle height and the lower above the sole bar). And vertical linings only around the doors (but have to have this confirmed). And I will repaint another R4531 (for BG No 163-193) without removing the raised detail and finish with the 'standard' LNER wood panel beading lining.

I've spent a lot of time looking at Campling and Jenkinson's & Nick Campling's 2 books on LNER coach drawings (where is very little showing on sleeping cars) but I think I've got all necessary from your 2 postings. However, if I've made any glaring assumptions I'd be very keen to hear.

Hope this gets across to you this time, and again, many thanks for your help.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Seagull » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:50 am

Hello Graeme,

I'm travelling for the next 24 hours so will give you a proper reply after I get home.

However I don't see anything I would disagree with after a quick read through.

Alan
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Seagull » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:57 pm

I'm still on the way, but a couple of quick comments.

You mentioned P2 haulage so I assume you are thinking of Scotland. Remember the RU would be detached at York on the way north so would never make it that far! If you are looking at southbound I am afraid I cannot help you, I would assume there was some sort of meal provision from Aberdeen but I don't know what it was.

If you are intent on the RU it would be #7 and the BG moved to #8 otherwise the passengers would have to fight their way through a probably fairly full brake van to reach their meals. :D

Alan
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:26 pm

Many thanks Alan,

Yes intended to represent Scotland (bound) express so a valid point about the RU but if it was the KX to York section I presume retaining the RU would be acceptable . Might 'throw it open to the audience' to see if any suggestions on how and in what alternative car the passengers were fed in from York north. (Have driven a few times from North Yorkshire to near Aberdeen and at about 300 + miles have had to have some sustenance en-route. Might be slightly shorter and quicker by train but same would apply).

Anything else that comes to mind very welcome.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Danby Wiske » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:48 am

Graeme Leary wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:26 pm
...but if it was the KX to York section I presume retaining the RU would be acceptable.
But then you wouldn't be able to use the P2...

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:24 pm

Ah ha, but of course!

Think I will have to add some hints of heather around the more isolated part of my layout and call it a section between Dundee and Edinburgh - as caption to 2001 (p65) in 'Named Trains on LNER Lines'. Alternatively rename/number my P2 to 2002 Earl Marischal (as p64) and call it 'somewhere between Aberdeen and Dundee'. Both options save me trying to hunt down an RU model - money saved!

But how did the passengers sustain themselves over such a long distance - were there queues (as here in the colonies) in understaffed, poor quality food and beverages at stops en-route or was this when the ubiquitous flask and home-made sandwiches pack became established?

Many thanks.

Graeme
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by JASd17 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:48 pm

The Up Aberdonian had catering from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, provided by a Restaurant First and Open Third, although only 24 seats of the latter were allocated to dining. The SSA also provided a Composite in this section of the train, all three carriages worked Down from Edinburgh at 9.55am. Information from a Summer 1939 CWB. Interestingly, they are described as N.B. in the book, rather than SSA.

The Restaurant First is probably a Diagram 11, the Composite is stated to have 15 First and 24 Third Class seats. Could this be a cascaded locker composite with three-a-side seating in Third Class? As far as I know, a least one Diagram 116 was cascaded to the NSA, could it be one of these, not working on the NSA?

John

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Seagull » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:05 pm

JASd17 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:48 pm
The Up Aberdonian had catering from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, provided by a Restaurant First and Open Third.... Interestingly, they are described as N.B. in the book, rather than SSA.
Thanks for your input - it proved I should have gone back and read the Carriage Working books properly.... :oops:

The RUs used from KX to York are described in the CWBs as GN 42783 and GN 43041 and were supplied by that area so it makes sense that the provision on the up service would be described as NB (Southern Scottish Area) the same way.
JASd17 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:48 pm
The Restaurant First is probably a Diagram 11
Agreed and it was probably one of the 7 I did not have the numbers for in my notes - 31868, 31920, 31922, 31923, 31924, 31926, 31935.
I don't have anything to suggest which one(s) were actually used.

The Open Third I am certain was one of the diagram 27A as the seating numbers and weight matches, plus that was their intended use.
For these I have found the following numbers - 315, 317, 321, 327, 337, 345, 346, 353, 357, 388, 396.
JASd17 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:48 pm
the Composite is stated to have 15 First and 24 Third Class seats. Could this be a cascaded locker composite with three-a-side seating in Third Class? As far as I know, a least one Diagram 116 was cascaded to the NSA, could it be one of these, not working on the NSA?
The composite is a real conundrum. The seating numbers strongly suggest a dia 8 or 116, I can find nothing else that matches so well with the seating capacity and weights. Plus as it was used only from Aberdeen to Edinburgh the luggage compartment makes sense as it would save having to hurriedly eject passengers baggage from a brake van that was in about to head south.

I have one dia 116 1292/7780 being cascaded at an indeterminate date - the last proven date for ECML use I have is 1936 so sometime after that, which just about fits and it does not appear in the 1935 CWB for the Aberdonian but does in the 1936 so it is possible. I'm still a little doubtful. The other dia 8 (4 of them) and dia 116 (1) were cascaded in 1938/9 so too late.

Alan
Last edited by Seagull on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
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