Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

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Seagull
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Seagull » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:14 am

Hello Graeme,

I nearly managed to finish writing this last night but I fell asleep before I pressed the submit button.... :)

I have to admit to a couple of mistakes to my post previously as I confused the weeekday and Sunday workings :oops:

From 1936 to 1939 there were always 11 carriages in the planned roster for the weekday workings. On Sundays carriage #8 the composite and #11 the Dundee brake van were left out making 9. I managed the confuse the Sunday 1937 and 1938 workings in my post above.
So you could well claim it's a Sunday working.
Graeme Leary wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:04 am
1. BG Corridor Luggage Van Diagram 45 (chose from Class numbers 163-193)
2. SLT Sleeper 3rd " 95 (chose from Class numbers 1241-1256)
3. SLF Sleeper 1st " 157 (actually use 1165)
4. SLT Sleeper 3rd " 148 (chose from class numbers 1336-44)
5. CKL Corridor Composite " 158 (options but probably from class number 154-8)
6. BTK Corridor Brake 3rd " 40 (close from class numbers 114, using one of the many options listed)
7. BG Corridor Luggage Van " 43 (chose from class numbers 140-146)
Seems like a good plan to me :)

Though either stick the RU in as #7 so your passengers can get to it and have the BG as #8 or miss out the RU completely to get your 7 carriages.

In the GN section the RUs 42782, 42783 and 43041 seen to have been used fairly indiscriminately though the 1936 CWB states "To be 43033 Gas Cooking Car on Fridays". This is the only book that has this note. Note the GN section only had 3 dia 11 RU carriages which is why I only had the 3 numbers for the ten built - not GN area! The remainder went to the Southern Scottish Area, often described as NB in the carriage working books as John picked up above. 43033 was a GN46 12 wheel first class restaurant car with 20 seats.
Graeme Leary wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:04 am
Hornby's accuracy in their models leaves a lot to be desired but at a couple of shows I've attended in the UK the comments have been made that generally, their later production is much closer to prototypical.
This I think relates to Hornby products of the last several years rather than just to the LNER carriages. Personally I think the more recent Gresley stock is fairly good especially as 'layout carriages' as Tony Wright would call them. You can't see the tumblehome from the sides as they pass you at (a scale) 50-60mph anyway.
I really don't like the look of the promised new Gresley carriages from Hornby on their website. Hopefully the 'Fablon' look is only a poor representaion on the website and the carriages as supplied will look much more like the older tampo printed models which had a really good impression of teak in my opinion.

I looked up what is available in terms of ready to run or kits and the results are not good. The most useful range would have been the Kirk kits, but I've given up hope of ever seeing them again.

Ready to run the Hornby BG is at least gettable if you are prepaired to pay the prices. The sleeping car R4174s do sometimes show up at reasonable prices, they represent the earlier dia 17 sleepers but probably were used as substitutes or strengtheners. The R4064 I would personally stay away from.

Kits, Bill Bedford lists the dia 11 RU, Wizard Models the dia 40 in the Comet range and the dia 27A is available from Dart Castings in the MJT range.

After that it is DIY

Alan
Last edited by Seagull on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Playing trains, but trying to get serious

Seagull
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Seagull » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:32 am

Thinking further on the Aberdeen to Edinburgh dia 8/116 locker composite.

Does anyone have access to any of the 1936 - 1939 carriage working books for the Southern Scottish area?

The answer to the question if it is a/the dia 116 might just be contained within as it may mention the luggage arrangments for the locker.

Alan
Playing trains, but trying to get serious

JASd17
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by JASd17 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:53 am

It is possible that a Locker Composite was loaned to the SSA, perhaps by the East Coast section. This was not unknown on the LNER, one Great Northern twin ran for several years in a GC Section service, but was not transferred.

Unfortunately, without going through committee minutes this is speculation and there is no number change as proof.

John

Graeme Leary
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:35 am

Thanks again Alan for your later comments - with a fair amount of soul-searching (and further input from jasD17) my Aberdonian will be more or less as I outlined in my last post and I like your suggestion of calling it a Sunday working. (Will leave off the RU - as John pointed out, after York where the RU was dropped the rest was overnight and would have arrived in Aberdeen in time for breakfast there. Were crisps or salted peanuts available then for any needed snacks?)

I do have a spare 3rd corridor which with some class number alterations might get me my CKL; a spare BTK; and also 2 spare Hornby R4351's one of which with ridges scraped off will become the diagram 45 BG and the other 'as is' for the diagram 43 - both to be teak painted and lined. Out here odd older models are around so the word's out I'm looking for 3 sleepers (R4174), 2 to become the 3rds and the other (despite being a little short of correct prototype length) to be the 1st. Hope this will get me past the tribunal out here!

Also a good chance to thank you for your earlier comments and rosters on QOS. This has now been superseded by 'Aberdonian' as it gives me a (albeit modified) Sleeping car express on my layout. I already have a Pullman express; West Riding Pullman - different cars but still shows this general idea. And on a mercenary perspective, as above, I already have 4 of the seven carriages I need for the Aberdonian set.

And, I understand you might be a resident (and/or work) in the general Plymouth area. Wonder if by any chance you're slightly eastwards in the South Hams as we always spend 4 or 5 nights each UK trip with a friend, currently living in Stokenham, near Kingsbridge. Also usually go into Plymouth one day - lunch at Royal William Yard if nothing else. We're over there in September and would enjoy meeting if possible.

Regards,
Graeme

Caledonian
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Caledonian » Sat May 11, 2019 5:19 pm

There is, unfortunately, a rather big problem with your cunning plan in that 2001 was very much a one-off and 2002 exhibited significant differences from it, especially at the front end.
Stuart

A fool is a person who makes false conclusions from right principles; whereas a madman, on the contrary, draws right conclusions from wrong principles [Encyclopedia Britannica 1797]

JASd17
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by JASd17 » Sun May 12, 2019 12:34 am

Some of us are helping Graeme with his questions.

John

Graeme Leary
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Sun May 12, 2019 1:08 am

Have I opened up a 'can of worms' (yet again?)

There are plenty of compromises I've had to (reluctantly) accept due to either incorrect replication of RTR models and the non-availability of kits for the correct diagrams.

However, my current intentions are that my slimmed-down 'Aberdonian', worked by 2001, will represent a Sunday formation (see 'seagull's comments) and will said to be running somewhere between Waverley and Aberdeen. I shall have to throw myself on the mercy of the tribunal when/if the inquisition calls.

And I must confirm I've been really grateful for all the help received both through direct PMs or through the forum.

Graeme

Caledonian
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Caledonian » Fri May 17, 2019 7:31 pm

JASd17 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 12:34 am
Some of us are helping Graeme with his questions.

John
So am I. Having taken the trouble to assemble a correct rake of coaching stock it would be a great pity to spoil it with the wrong locomotive. While I understand why he wants to head the train with the Earl Marischal, I'd suggest that it would be better to stick with a correct Cock o the North rather than bodge up an incorrect Earl Marischal :)
Stuart

A fool is a person who makes false conclusions from right principles; whereas a madman, on the contrary, draws right conclusions from wrong principles [Encyclopedia Britannica 1797]

Graeme Leary
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri May 17, 2019 10:41 pm

Thanks Caledonian but you will see from my previous posting I AM working my 'Aberdonian' with Cock-o-The-North (2001) as even an untrained eye such as mine (ask JASd17 and humorist) has picked up some of the differences between the 2 P2s.

It is actually the rake of carriages that have the most inaccuracies due to no correct RTRs made or kits produced of the actual diagrams (possibly with 1 maybe 2 exception) but until something correct comes along I'll have to make do.

As an aside I am visiting a close (modeller) friend here on Tuesday, from your original part of the world and BR trained at Ferryhill which he is accurately replicating on his new layout.

Graeme

Graeme Leary
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:38 am

Getting dangerously close to completing my truncated version of 'Aberdonian'. Truncated as very limited by available RTR coaches to modify and also lack of kits to do correct replicas of various diagrams. I will ask forgiveness if/when any of you see my rendition.

However, as it has now been decided to represent a section between Dundee and Aberdeen (see earlier postings) were there any water troughs on this stretch of track? I already have a trough fixed in place (well before thoughts of 'Aberdonian' complicated my thinking) and would be nice if this anyway was an actual feature of this portion of the running.

Graeme Leary
New Zealand

earlswood nob
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by earlswood nob » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:56 am

Good morning all

The North British didn't have water troughs.

I don't think that the Caledonian had any either.

Earlswood nob

Graeme Leary
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:59 pm

Thanks Earlswood nob (and this has been confirmed by an ex Aberdeen Ferryhill manager who lives here in New Zealand). Seems there were troughs on the ECML somewhere near Berwick and also near Carstairs (which may have been Midland).
So some license might be in order (modeller's Rule 1) and my newly painted trackside heather bushes hopefully will give the aura of Scotia even if the troughs are incorrect.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by earlswood nob » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:18 am

Good morning all

There were the Lucker troughs south of Berwick on the NER line.

The troughs near Carstairs are probably those at Cumnock on the GSWR.

It's your railway and you can do what you want.

I normally build West Riding stock, but have the ex-MR 0-10-0 Lickey banker under construction. In my imagination; it may have been tried out on the Worsboro incline.

Earlswood nob

thegreenhowards
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by thegreenhowards » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:13 pm

Hello Graeme,

I enjoyed reading this thread as I’ve created a 1950s version of The Aberdonian. The d161/2 pair was a regular through from the early 1930s to the late 1950s and I think is an important pair to include if you possibly can. I created mine from ‘cutting and shutting’ Kirk sides which wasn’t too difficult. Some details are on RMWeb here https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt=3246132
(Hope I’m allowed to post links to ‘the other side’!). While new Kirk kits probably won’t reappear they do turn up at swap meets and on ebay and the sleepers don’t go for silly money unlike some of the other kits.

My other comments on your proposed shortened rake are that, while the Hornby sleeper is a good substitute for the d.157, the third classsleepers are rather different. Again Kirk kits are available for the d.95 but the d.148 looks difficult as it is a longer coach - maybe two d.95s? ...or lots of cutting and shutting!

Finally your idea of cutting the raised beading off the d.45 might produce a reasonable representation, but you should look at the underframe as the d.45 had no angle iron and probably other differences. I’ve settled for a steel panelled d.198 on mine using Comet sides. Details here.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt=3547353

Regards

Andy

Graeme Leary
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:44 am

Thanks again Earlswood nob: My ex Ferryhill contact here mentions 'Strawfrank' near Carstairs but none of my trusty British road maps show this place but surely it is the same as you suggest (and anyway out of 'Aberdonian's running route).
And Lucker near Berwick is same for both of you. (Helps me with my UK geography though).

Greenhoward: I was very pleased I was sitting down when I went through your posting and the attached rmweb links (to say I was staggered is an understatement) but must confess a fair amount of Rule 1 will apply in my case. Obviously limited by RTRs to adapt but will reconsider my idea to omit d161/2 and see if I can play around and reproduce this. Headstock's rmweb posting of dia 210 raised my hopes that this might be suitable but looking at Nick Campling's drawings they appears to differ in quite a few ways from d161/2. I had also promised myself that I would not tackle a kit again but who knows - look out nzpaul!)
From 'seagull's posted 'Aberdonian' roster for 1936 (and my need to shorten mine to 7, maybe 8 coaches) my main issue are the 2-3 SLTs. He shows only 1 dia 148 which is the same length (61' 6") as dia 157 SLF and it is the Hornby SLT model R4174 (I presume correct for scale length) I have 4 to work with. So maybe my rake will have 2 (3) d148s instead of d95 (and if I can't track down a 'sides only kit' I'll see if I can cobble together sides to replace the Hornby models with.
All a bit Heath Robinson and I can hear the cringing here below the equator but thank goodness for 'Rule 1'!
However any further input gratefully welcome.

Graeme

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