Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

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earlswood nob
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by earlswood nob » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:54 am

Good morning all

I've learnt something new already today.

There were water troughs built south of Strawfrank by the LMS in 1927. The date shows why they were not in my pre-grouping atlas.

Strawfrank is an area of Carstairs close to Carstairs junction.

My knowledge of Scottish geography is very limited, but has increased today.

Earlswood nob

thegreenhowards
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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by thegreenhowards » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:52 am

Hi Graeme,

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to cause alarm! I hope you’re sitting down again because I’m going to suggest a slightly different approach.

I’m afraid that both the D.157 and D.148 are 66’6” vehicles - longer than the Hornby model. The D.95 was 61’6” but looked very different from the first class sleeper. The Hornby model you mention is a D.19 61’6” SLF , which was very similar to the D.157, but the latter had an extra 5’ to accommodate a shower cubicle. I think the Hornby Model would be a reasonable substitute for the D.157 and they must have stood in from time to time.

Third class sleepers in the 1930s were very different from First class. They were more similar to compartment stock with a fold down upper berth on each side - so four people to one compartment - similar to European couchette stock. I attach a photo of my model of a d.95 which was created from Kirk sides on a Hornby donor vehicle. It’s quite old now, so please excuse the slightly tatty look. Note that they were convertible into day stock and were not AFAIK lettered ‘SLEEPING CAR’.
3C73ED49-FF1E-40DC-990A-33703B449349.jpeg
24E8AF5A-580F-40EF-AF82-E88CBDA04973.jpeg
The D.148 was similar in concept to a D.95 with four to a compartment, but was not convertible and was lettered ‘SLEEPING CAR’. The corridor side was similar to the D.95 but the doors were right at the extremities of the sides. However the berth side was very different with regular spaced smaller windows. There is a picture on p90 of the blue Michael Harris book if you have access to a copy. If not I can send you a copy but can’t post it here for copyright reasons.

I now realise that you are NZ based, which will make tracking down a Kirk kit very difficult, even if you were prepared to build it. So sticking to RTR you might be best to model it with two Hornby SLFs and a TK to represent (very crudely) the SLT. An alternative, if you’re feeling brave, would be to cut the ends of two Hornby sleepers down to a scale 56’ and articulate them to represent the D.161/2. However this would only work if you have reasonable wide radius curves and while the First Class part would be reasonably close, the Third Class would be a compromise at best. What do others think?

I hope this is not too depressing and comes over as constructive. Let me know if you want any more info.

Regards

Andy

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:02 am

Always happy to help people with British geography but usually it's my NZ based fellow citizens.

Andy (and what a fantastic musuem you Green Howards had/have in Richmond): Yes, was aware of the notable differences between the 1st and 3rd sleepers, mainly thanks to drawings of diagrams 95, 148 and 157 humorist and d17JAS have previously sent me, which is why I'd probably thrown in the towel and gone for a extremely loose replication of 'Aberdonian''. However Andrew at Wizard Models (seems to now be as modelsignals) has mentioned a drawing which 'could be done' and I've asked for more detail so maybe it's not closed yet.

I do have the Harris 'Blue' book so will refer to that as suggested.

Also had noted that diagram 95 3rd sleeping cars were not painted with SLEEPING CARS on the sides but note in John Crawley's 'The LNER IN Focus' (p143) a photo of a diagram 148 so finished. However first time I've come across the term AFIAK, could you please enlighten me

Would like to recreate your models (which are not 'tatty' as far as I can see) with same combination of Kirk sides kit and Hornby 'donor' frame (I presume) but older kits can be difficult to obtain out here. However, if I could it might be possible despite my limited skills (as I did with a Wizard sides only restaurant triplet set kit on Hornby base/frames).

Will I ever complete this project? (And my Abedonian mate is currently sitting in an aircraft heading your way for a long holiday - he has a lot to answer for!)

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by thegreenhowards » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:47 am

Graeme,

Thanks for the compliments on the museum. Sadly I’m not military at all...just named after my favourite Deltic! Both the Deltic and the V2 run on my layout. You’re not the first person to make that assumption and I rather regret choosing that name now.

AFAIK = As far as I know.

Good luck with the project. It’s a great train to model...if a bit of a challenge. Here is a link to a short video of my c.1957 attempt running on Tony Wright's Little Bytham layout. The formation had changed a little by then, with some mark 1 day coaches and a Thompson SLSTP replacing the Gresley SLTs, but the D.161/2 and d.157 are still there

https://youtu.be/JUONW1NdgX0

Andy

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:24 am

Andy,

Little Bytham and Aberdonian look great - the size of the layout really does justice to the formation.

Regarding coach kits, Andrew of Wizard Models has referred me to the RDEB range they obviously sell but none of the diagram/descriptions on the website seem to be the diagram numbers relating to Aberdonian. And there are not photos/drawings of the RDEB kits they have so unable to make a visual comparison. Have you come across this product? (It's getting the dimensions correct on the SLT relative to the SLF that's exercising my mind the most, with adding the D161/2 very close behind).

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by thegreenhowards » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:05 am

Graeme,

Yes Little Bytham is wonderfully spacious. My own layout is a similar size but spans two rooms through a wall, so I can't get the wide views in the same way - and it's nowhere near LB's standard.

I have built one RDEB kit - the D.168 Tourist Buffet. It went together well, but they are not complete kits - you have to source various bits to complete them such as bogies and roof and the instructions are worse than useless! I wouldn't recommend them if you're not a confident kit builder. Also, as you say, they don't do the relevant diagrams for the Aberdonian. They do offer the D.18/19 twin SLF and the D.258 buffet which have the correct lengths for the D161/2 and D.157/148 respectively, so they may be some help if he'd sell the underframes separately. However that doesn't help with the sides which, as far as I know, nobody produces - sleeping cars are generally poorly served by the kit manufacturers. That's why I went down the route of cutting and shutting Kirk kits for my D.161/2 and D.157. I haven't yet tried a D148, which looks more difficult, but it's on the list for one day as I love sleeping cars!

I'm currently building a D.18/19 based on Mousa sides (http://mousa.biz/fourmm/coach/sides/LNE ... ides4.html). In this case you get no instructions, but I'm building mine onto the older Hornby short Gresley donor bodies. It's quite a lot of work, and I think next time I'd use the newer Gresleys as donors, but that is another possible route.

The D.18/19 SLF is fairly similiar to the first class half of the D.161/2, so you could accept this as a compromise - it would introduce an articulated vehicle which would certainly give a good flavour of the Aberdonian. So maybe a D.18/19, a Kirk D.95 SLT (if you can source one) and a standard Hornby SLF would give a good shortened rake?

Andy

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:01 am

Thanks again Andy and I think with my limited skills (and exile in the colonies) I should keep well clear of the REDB items. Many of your suggested alternatives likewise might be exercising my abilities to the extreme.

However, and as the 3rd class sleeping cars are the bugbear it has occurred to me that perhaps there were/was an occasion when the 'Aberdonian' operated and it consisted of mainly 1st class sleeping cars instead of the normal ratio of 3 or 4 3rds to each 1st. Maybe some auspicious event was on and the 'top table' had to be shipped in and 1st class sleepers were dominant to accommodate them.

Might be something an archivist would know but I already have 2 main-line expresses (West Riding Pullman & Flying Scotsman) on my layout with correct details for a specific day's running.

Long shot but might this also be a possibility for 'Aberdonian'?

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by thegreenhowards » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:53 pm

I wouldn’t know about that sort of operation in the 1930s. I suspect that if a high percentage of FC was required that might be run as a relief, but you could always model that separate train.

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:21 pm

Andy,

I have acquired another 2 Hornby R4174 (1st class sleepers) at a reasonable price (about 30 quid - my other 2 were over GBP50) and whilst loath to hack around with this sort of money maybe this is what I'll do, more likely to replicate dia 148s, the same length as the dia 157 SLF which should avoid any frame length issues. However, this would still have the 147 and 158 sleepers at a difference scale length (66'6") to the CKL, BGs(2) and BTK (61'6") in the set. Whether this 5' scaled-down difference will be that obvious I'd be keen to hear any ideas on.

I could also consider turning them into the articulated D161/2 set but the degree of curve on my layout might make this less practicable, as well as the 'ouch' factor when I cut them back to correct scale length.

Regarding my imaginary Aberdonian carrying the nobs from KX to Aberdeen, this might be a temporary 'out' (even though d17JAS tells me a P2 would not have worked such a formation) and to have it sitting there, with Aberdonian coach roof boards should grate sufficiently to make me actively get on to converting 2 of them to dia 148s.

The plot thickens.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:37 am

Off on another (slight) tangent.

One of the Hornby RTRs I'm adapting is R4170, labelled as '61'6" Corridor Brake Coach' (No 24067) as a 1st/3rd composite and I now realise it is vastly different to the diagram 40 I was using for the CKL in the set.

Nick Campling's 'Historic Carriage Drawings' suggests it is based on a dia 143 (or possibly a dia 140). If this is the case would either of these diagrams been part of a 1930s 'Aberdonian' set (that also would have been worked by P2 2001) and what as (composite, all 1st or 3rd) and under what range of running numbers? (The drawings in Nick Campling's book imply diagram 143 was a 1st - ie no 3's drawn - and diagram 114 is described as Corridor Brake Third but I have understood that sometimes changes were made to the class arrangements).

Thanks again.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by thegreenhowards » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:42 am

Graeme,

I think it’s a good idea to get the train running with what you have. Four Hornby SLFs will at least look like a sleeper train. But there is so much variety in sleeping cars that it would be a shame not to create a different example in due course - either a twin or a SLT - although I think the D.148 is the most difficult of the lot!

As for your locker composite, I’m no expert as they weren’t so prevalent in my era (1950s) - at least in the carriage workings. I think the Hornby BCK (R4170) is a D.175. There is a photo of one on p48 of the Michael Harris blue book. Looking at a photo of locker composites (p93 of Harris brown book) it seems to be a cross between a CK and a BCK, but I think your BCK is about as close as you could get without kit building/ bashing.

Andy

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:11 pm

Thanks Andy, will forge ahead with certainly 3 SLFs in my set (and keep eyes/ears open for a hopeful discovery of a dia 148 - or maybe a 95 SLT kit). It is a pity that Hornby's R417- series, generally fairly good in their reproduction - do not include either a 148 or 95 as part of the series. But I suppose they're out to sell train 'sets' and not cater for pedants like me (and a few others!).

The photo on p48 Harris's blue book does look like the R4170 but raises another query to me. Were the 3rd class doors not indicated with a 3 as there are only 2 of the 6 doors with 1? Maybe as this is a 1964 photo it could have been the case then and not during the 1930s. Also Nick Campling's 'orange' book shows dia 175 as not having been build until 1937 on - a little later than my 'ideal' running, but I'm splitting enough hairs, what are a couple more?

However if there are any other published 'Aberdonian' rosters covering a few more mid/late 1930s sets, these would make interesting reading.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by JASd17 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:39 am

Graeme,

Ask robertcwp for the carriage workings. As long as it is not a Winter service for the late 1930s. That is a carriage working book we are all looking out for.

John

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by Graeme Leary » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:04 am

John,

Please enlighten me (again) - robertcwp, a new name/term to me.

Graeme

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Re: Aberdonian (not THE Aberdonian)

Post by thegreenhowards » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:22 am

Graeme,

The 3’s on the door went out in late LNER times, or maybe on nationalisation - someone will have the exact date. Certainly would be well gone by 1964, by which time they would have been 2’s anyway (3rd changed to 2nd in 1956).

Robertcwp (Robert Carroll) runs a yahoo group called BR coaching stock which has a fantastic resource of carriage working notices over the years. It’s mainly BR era, but with a few earlier ones. Here is a link, but you will need to register to get access.

https://xa.yimg.com/df/BRCoachingStock/ ... e=download

Andy

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