Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

This forum is for the discussion of railway modelling of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard, Tom F

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5354
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu May 02, 2019 1:26 pm

Is this a (clumsy) link to the right one?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gwr+5 ... XBRf9kx3wM:
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Thu May 02, 2019 2:54 pm

Brilliant Graeme, thank you so much!

Paul

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Thu May 02, 2019 3:08 pm

I must confess I am tempted to use 56xx chassis for the project, as the coupled wheelbase is very close, even the overall wheelbase is pretty good. Wheels are a little oversize 4'7" over 4'4"), but that is the same difference over as the J72 is under, and far closer on wheelbase (1mm over as opposed to 6mm under)

Mind you, the 64xx chassis is better still...................

Paul.

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Fri May 03, 2019 10:17 am

Indecision strikes!

The more i study, the more uncertain I am as to which chassis to use.

I've mooted the following;

J72 (the original base chassis), wheels are 4'1" rather than 4'4", wheelbase is 18" short, 6mm in OO. The difference does show on the mule prints against the pictures, but if a better chassis is difficult to source, I'll go with it. I am slightly temped to cut No.29 down in length to get the features to match up correctly.

56xx, which is very close in respect of overall wheel base and coupled wheelbase, but has a pronounced offset of the centre driving axle.

64xx, 4" short on wheelbase at 14'8", but equally spaced (probably okay visually), but difficult to source for a sacrifice-able price

Midland 1F - the real thing has a slight offset (7'4"+7'8"), but correct overall coupled wheelbase, I need to measure up the model. I have one of these already, but I'd quite like to not dismantle it, and others seem to have suddenly become unobtainium.

I have a list of others I need to measure and check. we're basically looking for a 15' (60mm) wheelbase with equally spaced axles.

I've seen a number of arguments and debates over the years across many forums in respect of scratchbuilding the chassis, and I totally support, respect and admire those who can, and have the time to do so, for my part however, I just don't have the additional spare time for that as well, as much as I would love to have a go at building something like that, especially with the range of motors and gearboxes available, I'm sure something fancy could be made.

Paul.

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Tue May 07, 2019 1:47 pm

I've just got back from Grosmont, with a LOAD of dimensions, and pictures, so a start can be made on the drawings and updating the CAD.

In a lot of areas, I was not far off at all on dimensions, particularly the ones which had been done by scaling pictures. but in others, the info gleaned this morning was a godsend. I also got to regale with the Owner, Chris Cubitt, and he was telling me about saving the engine in 1970. One of the volunteers, Graham, accompanied me around the engine, and the workshops, and was very helpful indeed.

It also turns out that No.29 does not have evenly spaced wheels, the centres from front to back are, 7'10" and 7'2", with the trailing wheel another 90" back from there. having unequal spacing might yet prove a godsend towards finding a suitable chassis, as stuff like the 56xx could be used backwards etc.

Onwards and upwards!

Paul.

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5354
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Tue May 07, 2019 7:13 pm

Those revised wheelbase figures make sense, being exactly the same as the Kitson-built LDEC and H&B 0-6-2T locos.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Tue May 07, 2019 10:29 pm

Atlantic 3279 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 7:13 pm
Those revised wheelbase figures make sense, being exactly the same as the Kitson-built LDEC and H&B 0-6-2T locos.
Thanks Graeme, I just need to narrow down a suitable chassis now.

Cheers, Paul.

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Tue May 07, 2019 10:39 pm

Alan Gibson supply milled mainframes for the LNER N5, which is a possibility. I wanted to avoid having to build the chassis for reasons previously noted, so this may have to sit until I've explored all of the RTR chassis options. at the moment, the bachmann DCC spec 57xx chassis, reversed might be suitable, its not perfect, but much closer than the J72.

Paul.

EDIT - LNER N5, though shares the overall 22'6" wheelbase as the Kitson Machines, is a GCR loco, and the centre axle is forward biased, rather than the rearward bias of the Kitson.

The N12, built by Kitson, but to Matthew Stirling's design, is also centre axle forward bias. this one is particularly strange, as the N12 followed the N11 on the H&BR, was built by Kitson, and yet has a different wheelbase arrangement. Perhaps with hindsight they felt changing the position of the centre axle may give improved weight distribution?

SO at this stage the N6 and N11 are the machines with the shared frames with No.29

User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 5354
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu May 09, 2019 11:03 am

Driving axle positions possibly determined by use of maker's in-house standard motion parts etc? Kitson's left to their own devices would presumably use their own standard parts, but building a M. Stirling design based on H & B standard parts they should build what was requested.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.

earlswood nob
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by earlswood nob » Thu May 09, 2019 11:20 am

Good morning all

Alan Gibson do a SR U class mogul chassis at 7'3+7'9 which would give you the correct total wheelbase with the centre axle only 0.33mm out.

They also do rods for the U class.

The chassis may have to be hacked about a bit to fit the body.

Earlswood Nob

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Thu May 09, 2019 11:23 am

Atlantic 3279 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:03 am
Driving axle positions possibly determined by use of maker's in-house standard motion parts etc? Kitson's left to their own devices would presumably use their own standard parts, but building a M. Stirling design based on H & B standard parts they should build what was requested.
I think that is a very good conclusion Graeme.

I measured up a range of RTR chassis last night. The GWR 2-6-0 and 4-6-0's almost all use the same 7'0" + 7'9" coupled wheelbase, which when reversed produces a spacing which is almost indistinguishable at OO scale to the correct spacing's for No.29 (7'10" + 7'2"). But even this brings about its own problems, it moves the motor to the front of the loco, where it is too tall and too wide to be concealed. If I were to consider making a chassis, an etched chassis of a Hall/43xx/grange/saint/castle etc would be a good starting point, but I would be building it reversed, and with the motor-gearbox on either centre axle or what would have been the front driving axle when a GWR engine.

The Midland 1F remains a very good contender, its overall wheelbase is right, and the model (unlike the real thing) has equal-spaced wheels, which is wrong for No.29, but is by far the closest chassis offerings without changing the orientation of the chassis. Another very complicated idea would be to get new etched rods for the J72, and move the front axle forward, and the rear axle back, as it is the centre which is driven by the motor. I have access to a milling m/c, so that could be done, it doesn't mean it would be easy though. Ramblings over.

Paul.

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Thu May 09, 2019 11:52 am

earlswood nob wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:20 am
Good morning all

Alan Gibson do a SR U class mogul chassis at 7'3+7'9 which would give you the correct total wheelbase with the centre axle only 0.33mm out.

They also do rods for the U class.

The chassis may have to be hacked about a bit to fit the body.

Earlswood Nob
That is very true yes, that is probably ideal, I'll need to research up on motor-gearboxes, how to build the chassis, and all of the bits required, and acquire the skills too (all of which is my reason for avoiding making loco chassis).

Paul.

earlswood nob
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by earlswood nob » Fri May 10, 2019 8:17 am

Good morning all

AGW will supply rigid chassis if required, otherwise their chassis have hornblock guides.

I use Comet spacers and frame assembly jigs (available from Wizard models).

High Level gearboxes are easy to form and have a great range of ratios. I fitted an old Nu Cast Y7 (now available from SEF) with 108:1 gears and it has great slow running (down to a scale speed of 0.5mph). It also will handle 26 wagons before slipping.

Good luck with the build.

Earlswood Nob (detoxing with Chinese tea after celebrating a great night for English football)

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Fri May 10, 2019 9:11 am

earlswood nob wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:17 am
Good morning all

AGW will supply rigid chassis if required, otherwise their chassis have hornblock guides.

I use Comet spacers and frame assembly jigs (available from Wizard models).

High Level gearboxes are easy to form and have a great range of ratios. I fitted an old Nu Cast Y7 (now available from SEF) with 108:1 gears and it has great slow running (down to a scale speed of 0.5mph). It also will handle 26 wagons before slipping.

Good luck with the build.

Earlswood Nob (detoxing with Chinese tea after celebrating a great night for English football)
Thanks Earlswood,

I had not seen anything in regards to a rigid chassis on their webpage/catalogue. though in fairness, anything that is being built up is probably going to need the spring loaded hornblocks to run right.


Cheers, Paul.

Paul_sterling
NER J27 0-6-0
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:50 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (Kitson) No.29 build

Post by Paul_sterling » Fri May 17, 2019 9:19 am

The visit to the NYMR Was most fruitful, with a lot of dimensions verified.

There was quite a lot where changes were made, albeit 1mm here and there, so nothing major.

But one major cock-up of mine was the boiler centre line, which every time I tried to match it up with measured references (from pics before the NYMR visit, and from measurements afterwards) the loco looked too short, the boiler was sat down too low, even though the numbers were right. I added around 1.5mm to the boiler centre line, and that looks okay, but it was wrong dimensionally. Then I realised my mistake. the centreline had been referenced on the parametrics by what I used for the initial loco reference planes, and in this instance, that surface happens to always be the surface on which the supertructure sits on the chassis (so the support pads on the Q1), and in this case the front of the J72 chassis. That plane is actually 1.5mm below the running plate, and that is what knocked the measurements out.

So with that amended, and a perspective rendering, this is what I had late on last night.

Image20190517 Rendered by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

Paul.

Post Reply