Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

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Graeme Leary
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Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:27 pm

I am looking at fitting sound into my Sentinel-Cammell steam railcar (Nu-cast Partners kit NC119) and Frizinghall Model Railways advise that YouChoos do not have this specific sound but suggest that the sound they have for the 4-wheel LNER Sentinel loco should be 'similar'.

I'd be interested in any comments about this matter before I go ahead and order.

Graeme Leary
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richard
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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by richard » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:38 am

Plausible as they had the same broad design, and in many cases may well have been identical engines. There were quite a few railcar variants, so there were probably variations in the engines - cylinder size, stroke, etc.

Some of the engine/boilers were also shared or were very similar to those used in their road vehicles, so that might be another potential source?
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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by Graeme Leary » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:50 am

Thanks Richard but supplementary question.

Whilst not the greatest fan of Hornby's TTS (but in the interest of price) would any of this range be 'acceptable' for the general effect of steam in a Sentinel-Cammell railcar? The list I have of TTS shows sound for A3, A4, A1 (Tornado), King and Castle classes so I rather think not but just maybe.........?

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by earlswood nob » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:39 am

Good morning all

One possible problem will be that the Sentinel Railcar had a six cylinder engine. This coupled with the small wheels would give many more chuffs per metre than a normal loco.

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by Hatfield Shed » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:14 am

I would agree. What you probably want is the high speed but relatively quiet 'chaff-chaff-chaff' that can still be heard at steam fairs when a heavy steam lorry is demonstrated. None of the mighty barking exhaust and relatively slow stroke rate of a conventional direct drive steam loco. There's a little 'chain clank' type mechanism noise on starting, but thereafter the road lorries are relatively quiet and I imagine the rail mechanisms would have been similar.

Unless of course someone has actually heard such and can categorically state different, I have never heard a rail sentinel!

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by richard » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:03 pm

Graeme,

Sorry -- can't comment on the available sound systems. Agree with the others that it isn't going to sound like a regular steam loco though.
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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by 65447 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:19 pm

Hatfield Shed wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:14 am
I would agree. What you probably want is the high speed but relatively quiet 'chaff-chaff-chaff' that can still be heard at steam fairs when a heavy steam lorry is demonstrated. None of the mighty barking exhaust and relatively slow stroke rate of a conventional direct drive steam loco. There's a little 'chain clank' type mechanism noise on starting, but thereafter the road lorries are relatively quiet and I imagine the rail mechanisms would have been similar.

Unless of course someone has actually heard such and can categorically state different, I have never heard a rail sentinel!
Has a recording ever been made of the preserved Sentinel on the Middleton Railway in Leeds?

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by Danby Wiske » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:59 pm

65447 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:19 pm
Hatfield Shed wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:14 am
I would agree. What you probably want is the high speed but relatively quiet 'chaff-chaff-chaff' that can still be heard at steam fairs when a heavy steam lorry is demonstrated. None of the mighty barking exhaust and relatively slow stroke rate of a conventional direct drive steam loco. There's a little 'chain clank' type mechanism noise on starting, but thereafter the road lorries are relatively quiet and I imagine the rail mechanisms would have been similar.

Unless of course someone has actually heard such and can categorically state different, I have never heard a rail sentinel!
Has a recording ever been made of the preserved Sentinel on the Middleton Railway in Leeds?
Still only 2 cylinders though...

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richard
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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by richard » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:05 pm

Finally looked it up :-)

The early railcars (esp. diagrams 88,89) were 2 cylinders:

https://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.php

Later diagrams were 6 or 12 cylinder. Most significant were diagrams 93,96,97 which were all 6 cylinder.
Most of the railcars were dia 88,89,93,96,97 - the other diagrams were built in smaller, experimental numbers.

Yes the Middleton is 2 cyl - I remember seeing it in pieces 15+ yrs ago :-)
I believe the other survivor (on the Lavender Line? or was for a while) is also 2 cyl.

Which diagram is the kit?

Were the 6 cyl engines used on their road vehicles?
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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by Graeme Leary » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:33 pm

Richard,

The diagram is not shown on the box, just 6 CYL 100HO Type H steam railcar.

Is that any help with identifying suitable steam sounds? (A fellow modeller here - ex Robin Hood's Bay so should know what he's talking about even if his comment is a bit 'tongue in cheek' - suggests going to a traction engine steam rally, record the sounds and get them transferred to a sound decoder. All very well for him, he's a technical bod).

Many thanks.

Graeme

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by JASd17 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:51 pm

At the risk of being out-of-my-depth with this, the six-cylinder 100 Horsepower model will be of Carriage diagram 96 or 97, the most common types and, I think, those of the original Nu-Cast model.

I will contact a certain Mr Makepeace, via his son, who is also interested in modelling one of these, because he remembers them! Makepeace senior is also knowledgeable about digital chips of various kinds. Is there nothing equivalent in the US market? I did say I am ignorant on this matter!

John

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by Graeme Leary » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:48 am

Thanks John for your 'lateral' thinking. If Mr Makepeace Senior is also looking at doing this I'd be very happy to hear his thoughts - sounds as though he also has the knowledge on the trickier aspect of chips and the like (including maybe 'correct' sound).

Haven't looked into the US market at all - hadn't imagined a steam railcar chugging across the prairies but why not?

Graeme

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by JASd17 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:16 am

Some interesting Sentinel things here.

https://en-gb.facebook.com/groups/Sentinelrailcar/

John

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by Hatfield Shed » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 am

richard wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:05 pm
...Were the 6 cyl engines used on their road vehicles?
Don't know. Sentinel definitely used at least four cylinders on the road going steam wagons, because I got underneath a large one(with the owners permission and guidance) at a steam fair some years ago. (There's now a large eight wheel dual steer Sentinel - which might have yet more cylinders - at Beamish open air museum, on my 'to see' list, among much else at Beamish. This design was the apogee of road going steamers, and survived quite well, though not in its original transport role: the onboard heat source made them readily adaptable for tar laying operations.)

Whatever, the significant aspect of the Sentinel engine was the geared drive to the propelling wheels. I would suggest that knowing the exhausts per driving wheel revolution in each gear is most critical to 'getting it right'.

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Re: Sound - Sentinel Steam Railcar

Post by richard » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:40 pm

I haven't investigated US sound chips, but the only "Sentinel railcar" like things I can think of are the Doodlebugs as operated by Santa Fe amongst others. I'm not up on the types (and there's an operating one down the road in Frisco,TX at the "Museum of the American Railroad", formally the Dallas Age of Steam at the fairgrounds) , but I understood they were all internal combustion.

I just thought of things like Shays but they would have too slow a stroke, even if they were gear driven with multiple small cylinders (don't think any had 6 though - would have been a beast though!).
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