Gnr251/Lner 3251

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Graeme Leary
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Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:12 am

A question I probably know the answer to but was there any 'overlap' when GNR numbered locos worked into the Grouping era but retained their original GNR numbers for a period of time?

I am specifically thinking of GNR 251, one of the C1 liveries modelled by Locomotion and would it have worked as GNR/251 and if so, as late as 1927 when the 'West Riding Pullman' was officially named (according to Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines - Part 1'.

I do think the answer is 'no' but would be grateful for confirmation.

Graeme Leary
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Hatfield Shed
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by Hatfield Shed » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:51 am

Not as late as 1927. (No trouble having an Ivatt atlantic carrying GNR style in 1923, as the rebranding occurred at works visits.) The style evolved in those early years of the group, 'L&NER' rapidly dropped for 'LNER' and the loco running number on the tender for some years before it found its way onto the cabside.

jwealleans
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by jwealleans » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:55 am

There was indeed an overlap (while the new LNER decided how to renumber the acquired locomotive stock) but by 1927 the majority of locomotives would have been into shops at least once and so almost certainly been repainted while numbers could very easily be changed on shed. If you have access to Yeadon, have a look at whether 3251 was in Works for any length of time before 1927 and the probability is that it would be repainted and/or renumbered at that visit.

Darryl Tooley
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by Darryl Tooley » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:45 am

According to Yeadon's Vol 13, 251 became 251N on December 22 1923 and 3251 on March 7 1925.

D

Graeme Leary
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:21 pm

Thanks all, but one 'supplementary' question.

I have had an idea that there were 2 different shades of Green used as the main loco colour - was it Donaster or Darlington that had a markedly deeper green (which shows up in odd models produced) to the more usual apple green seen on eg most A1/3 models. If correct maybe certain of the pre-grouping companies used different greens that were their standard, but I have only heard of 2.

However, if so after the change to Grouping would LNER have standardised the main body on all inherited locos or would this have depended on the sheds they were shopped in and this difference retained (tolerated?)

Graeme

mick b
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by mick b » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:24 pm

Doncaster and Darlington both had their own ideas on liveries and other practices long into the LNER days. Look at Hornby's richer Apple green and Bachmann's effort . Bachmann's is much more like Darlington version of the "same" colour.

Graeme Leary
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:14 pm

Mick b - yes, it was Darlington's green that was the 'deeper' green I was thinking of. A side of me leans towards this 'deeper' green even though the couple of - mainly older- Bachmann models I have in this shade are obviously different to the Hornby models. (Used to be in the sewing thread and 'rag trade' so used to subtle difference in tones).

However, regarding the numbering I have just found a photo in RCTS (Green) book 3a which, in Fig 16, shows 251 with GNR on the tender at Doncaster works and dated MAY 1952,well into BR days. Would this date be incorrect or would it have been a 'preserved' loco kept with original GNR numbering, or even somehow still running 7 years after nationalisation but still GNR numbered?

Graeme

jwealleans
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by jwealleans » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:34 pm

It and 990 were put back into steam and worked a special train to mark the centenary of Doncaster Works.

drmditch
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by drmditch » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:10 am

jwealleans wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:34 pm
It and 990 were put back into steam and worked a special train to mark the centenary of Doncaster Works.
Except that 990 had to do most of the work. Understanding of 'conservation' or 'preservation' at that time entailed putting the chimney back into a central position on the smokebox, and that meant removing the 32 element superheater. However because the boiler flue tubes did not affect external appearance the large tubes were left in place but with no superheater elements inside them. As a result the locomotive could only just raise enough steam to move itself.


However, I will give everbodies best regards to No.251 when I see it in a couple of hours time.

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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by jwealleans » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:26 am

Where's 990 at the moment, Caroline?

Hatfield Shed
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by Hatfield Shed » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:40 am

Graeme Leary wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:14 pm
... I have just found a photo in RCTS (Green) book 3a which, in Fig 16, shows 251 with GNR on the tender at Doncaster works and dated MAY 1952,well into BR days. Would this date be incorrect or would it have been a 'preserved' loco kept with original GNR numbering, or even somehow still running 7 years after nationalisation but still GNR numbered?...
That's the loco restored to 'original condition' for preservation, by the standards of the time; almost certainly repainted from filthy black wartime paint. Ex GNR 251 and LNER 3251, later LNER 2800, was withdrawn from service before BR was created, but retained for preservation very properly as the most important UK maximum power express loco design of the first decade of C20th.

drmditch
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by drmditch » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:35 pm

jwealleans wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:26 am
Where's 990 at the moment, Caroline?
990 is in the York Museum, in the North Warehouse.(If I have got that name correct.) I saw it about 6 weeks ago. It is effectively at a platform, so one can't see much below the footplate. Why the Museum authorities chose to separate 990 and 251 I do not know, but is nice to have 251 at Locomotion (Shildon). I for one take care to present it properly on the Guided Tours that I conduct every Friday.

It was also very useful in the Tours/Talks/Demonstrations I was running a few weeks ago about 60103 and why it got to be so famous!

By-the-way, I did climb (with proper permissions and regard to safety and conservation status) into the cab on 251 to take some pictures showing the 'Driver's Side' view. It is a desperately uncomfortable cab, and the driver's position quite precarious. No wonder HNG was happy with Mr Spencer's suggestion for a Worsdell/GER style cab for the new Pacifics.
Footplate View - 251 - Small.jpg
I know those who have modelled the GN Atlantics have discussed this elsewhere, but the clearances between the side rods and the coupled wheels are very tight. One cannot insert one's fingers in between the connecting rod and the leading wheel coupling rod boss. There are also interesting indentations formed in the wheel centres to give clearance. If I can remember on Friday I will try to take a photograph.

Hatfield Shed
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by Hatfield Shed » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:51 am

Take a picture of the gap between the driving wheel flanges too, with a hand or something in the view to show scale.

The NRM's exhibition 'policy' is difficult to comprehend. A usefully coherent display of no 1, 990, 251, A3 and A4 in one location would be far more the thing.

drmditch
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by drmditch » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:20 pm

Hatfield Shed wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:51 am
Take a picture of the gap between the driving wheel flanges too, with a hand or something in the view to show scale.
A picture is almost impossible I'm afraid, owing to the footsteps being in the way.
I can tell you however (having attempted this previously) that I can only just get one finger into the gap.
This is about 14mm. (.55")
From RCTS Part 3A (6'8" wheel and 6'10" spacing ) gives a distance between treads of 1", but I think it is more than that.

Fortunately I'm not tempted by an ex-GN Atlantic for my NE Area railway. the long-term plan is for a V(C6) and/or possibly a Z(C07). Quick calculations from Part 3A suggest that the inter-driving-wheel clearance should be 4" between treads.

I'm just wrestling with a small problem on my A8 at the moment. (4.5" gap). With 5'9" wheels represented by 23mm Markits I cannot find any way to fit brake blocks!. (This is a semi-scratch-built chassis.) Next time I build anything like this I will definitely go for undersize wheels.

One little project I keep meaning to complete is to compare actual/plan sizes on several of the locomotives at Shildon. I can tell you that the Black Five is well under 6' and 4771 is definitely under 6'2".

Graeme Leary
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Re: Gnr251/Lner 3251

Post by Graeme Leary » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:54 pm

Thanks all, very interesting background info indeed.

May be at Sholdon in a couple of weeks so will have a look for/at 251

Graeme

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