Matching Doncaster green

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Woodcock29
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Matching Doncaster green

Post by Woodcock29 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:23 pm

A friend here in Australia needs a quantity of Doncaster green for three 7mm A3s he's building. Given we can't import paint from the UK he's wondering if anyone knows of any car paint that has been matched to Doncaster green?

Andrew

john coffin
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by john coffin » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:43 pm

Andrew,
the supplier to NRM in the uk is Williamson's and they have been around for ages.They have a website.
I am pretty sure they will have an international
paint code for the colour which you could then take to a local auto paint supplier in Aus to get them to mix it up.

HTH
Paul

Woodcock29
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by Woodcock29 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:35 pm

Thank Paul

Paul_sterling
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by Paul_sterling » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:06 am

Woodcock29 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:23 pm
A friend here in Australia needs a quantity of Doncaster green for three 7mm A3s he's building. Given we can't import paint from the UK he's wondering if anyone knows of any car paint that has been matched to Doncaster green?

Andrew
Hi Andrew,

I've been on with this for a while, and to be honest (though I didn't know about Williamsons), I've had a real chew on trying to find the right shade of Green. Craftmaster have a heritage range which includes it. The caveat I've found is that most offerings of Doncaster Green I've seen (including the Railmatch which I used), seem to come out way too dark to be the "Apple Green" we expect.

Paul.

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greenglade
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by greenglade » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:14 am

I can't help with a supplier in your part of the world but would caution that Doncaster green is much darker than many realise... apple green as seen in photos and on some models is wrong. Also, bear in mind that colour is greatly affected by scale, the smaller the scale the lighter you need to make the colour. So a can of Pheonix Doncaster Green (this is 100% the correct colour) will look a little dark on a model locomotive in 00 gauge. The level of gloss also needs to be taken into consideration. It's also worth noting that the colour would vary greatly during a locomotive's service, due to paint being mixed differently at other works after overhaul ( there was no off the shelf paint in LNER days) or just down to how long the paint has been on the loco. It fades in the sun and gets covered in ash/oil, there can be infinite variations in the colour which in some ways helps the modeller, as long as the shade is close who can argue that the colour is wrong.

Regards

Pete

65447
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by 65447 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:38 pm

greenglade wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:14 am
SNIP... It's also worth noting that the colour would vary greatly during a locomotive's service, due to paint being mixed differently at other works after overhaul ( there was no off the shelf paint in LNER days) or just down to how long the paint has been on the loco.
This 'fact' is often quoted and restated but is not accurate. The subsequent introduction of BS381 in 1930 formalised and standardised most paint colours already in use by government, the military, the utilities and the railways and, coupled with changes towards more affordable substitutes for the hitherto natural pigments and by synthesised replacements for base materials, was typically supplied pre-mixed in cans in bulk.

That is not to say that certain works such as those building wagons did not continue to mix some if not all of the bases, colours and coatings, but for example all of the paint for buildings and structures was supplied to the contractor by the LNER pre-mixed and this is confirmed by extant copies of painting specification and tender documents.

If as RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 1 states LNER locomotive green was unofficially described as 'Grass Green' then that equates to BS381C:218, for which a close equivalent is Australian Standard AS 2700-2011 G24 Fern Green.

The remainder of the points made by Greenglade are perfectly valid and should be taken note of. The only additional point to make would be that of variations in preparation of the base and subsequent coats and the final varnishing, all of which could modify the final perceived colour.

Woodcock29
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by Woodcock29 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:29 am

Thanks everyone for your comments - they're most helpful for my mate.

Andrew

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greenglade
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by greenglade » Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:54 pm

65447 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:38 pm
greenglade wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:14 am
SNIP... It's also worth noting that the colour would vary greatly during a locomotive's service, due to paint being mixed differently at other works after overhaul ( there was no off the shelf paint in LNER days) or just down to how long the paint has been on the loco.
This 'fact' is often quoted and restated but is not accurate. The subsequent introduction of BS381 in 1930 formalised and standardised most paint colours already in use by government, the military, the utilities and the railways and, coupled with changes towards more affordable substitutes for the hitherto natural pigments and by synthesised replacements for base materials, was typically supplied pre-mixed in cans in bulk.

The BS introduced in the 30's was only a guide, very few colours covered the railways and most certainly didn't cover 'Doncaster green". If I get permission I'll give a more informed answer thar was given to me earlier today from the creator of the Phoenix paint range,. Non know this subject better...

Regards

Pete

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greenglade
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by greenglade » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:16 pm

Hi guys

For those interested in paint colours I'll post this reply to me from Bob Shephard who created the phoenix paint range after decades of research and testing of genuine paint samples by the top laboratories of the day.

quote:

Hi Pete.

The Standard was introduced in 1930 but synthetic pigments didn't come into general use until after the war. Pigments were generally natural pigments, and varnishes were made from natural materials like linseed oil until after 1945. How to make synthetic resins was discovered during the second world war and until around 1946/46, most paints were based on natural materials and so did vary from batch to batch. Although the British Standard colour chart came out in the 1930s, it was only a guide. As far as the railways went, almost none of the colours used, were to be found in the Standard chart. L.N.E.R. Doncaster Green, definitely was not. I had a sample 3" square panel of original Doncaster Green paint, provided by the B.R.Surface Coatings Lab at Derby. When I got it I did check it against the standard colour chart but it didn't match, or even come close, to any of the B.S.S. Standard colours. You would have thought that B.R., being government owned, would have used standard colours, but in actual fact, in the early days, they looked at using old railway colours, like for the early B.R. Loco Green (up to 1954), they used unvarnished, synthetic G.W.R.Loco Green. I know that because they told me, and I checked it out against the panels I borrows from Swindon. In 1954, when they introduced the B.R.Spec 54, they changed the B.R.Loco Green, so that it was a bit darker and a bit Bluer than the G.W.R. colour, because there was a lot of rivalry between the 'Big Four', and they disn't want to upset the L.N.E.R., L.M.S. and Southern, by continuing to use the original Green. It wasn't until 1953/54, that B.R. realised that synthetic paints could be made and colour matched to 'touch-up' quality, that they moved away from trying to use any of the old railway colours. Paint making machinery also had to be improved to get to this level of colour matching accuracy. Pigment powders had to be able to be ground down, and measured, to sub micron particle sizes. Getting back to the BS 381 colour chart, I also pulled this off the web, which gives a bit more history of the charts:-


The British Standard 381C range

The colours were then cross-referenced with most of the other leading international standards, including that of the British Standards Institution (BSI). This classification presented a list of colours for ready mixed paints, and the colour range is labelled BS 381C. The BSI’s first colour standard was BS 381, published in 1930, and it was different from the work of the BCC. It was not a co-ordinated range of colours, but a collection of specific individual colours for certain uses like signalling and coding, camouflage and identification for bodies like the armed forces and government departments. BS 381C came about in 1948 as a range of colours for ready mixed paints, now consisting of 91 colours that are different from the BCC 4800 range.

Hope this helps.

Bob.

end quote:

Paint is an interesting subject, especially for me when talking railways...:)

Regards

Pete

Paul_sterling
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by Paul_sterling » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:05 pm

Pete,

Did bob ever say what (if any) BS colour eventually ended up as comparable to Doncaster Green, or even Darlington Green for that matter :D

Thanks, Paul.

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greenglade
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by greenglade » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:02 pm

Hi Paul

I have sent a PM to Bob to ask your question. I think that this question has come up a number of times on the MECH forum before and the answer being 'no' but have asked again on your behalf.

Btw, I've been reading your build of the S1 (actually I do follow some of the other builds all of which are excellent), nice work sir...

Pete

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greenglade
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by greenglade » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:33 pm

Hi Paul

Just got a reply from Bob..

qoute:

Hi Pete.

No. Unfortunately there is no BS standard colour that is anywhere near close enough to get away with using as Doncaster Green.

Cheers.

Bob.

end quote:

Kind regards

Pete

Dave
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by Dave » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:47 pm

Thank you Paul for confirming what I had been told re Doncaster Green.
I understand all the LNER colours are correct matches according to
Nick Campling.
ps. keep up the amazing work.

Paul_sterling
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Re: Matching Doncaster green

Post by Paul_sterling » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:04 pm

greenglade wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:02 pm
Hi Paul

I have sent a PM to Bob to ask your question. I think that this question has come up a number of times on the MECH forum before and the answer being 'no' but have asked again on your behalf.

Btw, I've been reading your build of the S1 (actually I do follow some of the other builds all of which are excellent), nice work sir...

Pete
Thank you for enquiring Pete, Much obliged....... and thank you Re the S1. I've just added some more pics just now,

Thanks. Paul.

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