Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

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Paul_sterling
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Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

Though No.29 is still very much in progress on my workbench (and the almost finished S1), a post on Facebook prompted me into action.

The Lambton Trust, and the NYMR have made a start on the strip down of R.Stephensons' No.5 in the NELPG Deviation shed. The locomotive is at the very least cosmetically, in poor condition, and will need quite a bit of work to return to steam, and with work, also time, the NYMR is an incredibly efficient Motive Power Depot these days, but also incredibly busy, and with 44806 likely getting a partial jump up the ladder, work on No.5 could potentially be quite steady. No.5 last run in the early 1990's, so I cannot remember seeing it run, being born in '87, I've been visiting the NYMR all of my Life, but early memories of particular engines don't stand out (perhaps beyond No.60007, 3672, or 34101, but even those were by mid 1990s anyway.

With this in mind, I needed to get the dimensions and pictures of the engine as quick as possible, so last Wednesday I took a trip up to Grosmont to do just that.

Happily, with the salient parts of the engine still intact, I've actually ended up with a better, more complete set of drawings for No.5 than I did for No.29. the shape is slightly less difficult to conceptualise, as No.5 doesn't have the Lambton Cab of No.29, which features a compound curve that is a nightmare to dimension. No.5 has simple reference points to work out the radius of the cab roof, and that is about it!

Even better, via the Rhomney Railway Class R/Class M, No. 5 is an ancestor of the GWR 56XX, so much to my delight, the wheelbase, both coupled and trailing, are identical to the 56XX, with the minor exception of the 56xx having 1.5" dia bigger wheels. The downside of this is that I cannot just update the planar references on the CAD of No.29 to save time in creating No.5, I'll have to start from scratch, but thus far I've created all of the reference planes I measures (such as axle centre-lines, boiler CTR, smokebox front etc etc.) in readiness for receiving a Bachmann 56XX, from which I'll create the underside pocket.

Though I've never had the same affection for No.5 as I have for No.29, I am very much looking forward to this project, but do intend to finish the other two off first!

Paul.
Paul_sterling
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

So I purchased a Bachmann 56XX, DCC ready loco. I thought about just buying a chassis, which was slightly cheaper (only slightly), but ultimately decided to get the whole loco, as that would give a valuable reference to the internal body profile and where it integrates with the chassis.

I had wondered how Bachmann had approached the issue of the fixing of the trailing truck. On No.29 I used two arcs on the loco to allow the truck to rotate about the rear axle, without having a linked connection to it. Bachmann have used a cylindrical mount to provide rotation, and a narrow chassis with lots of sideplay to provide the variance factor. It works well, but means the chassis is seriously skinny at this point, no great problem for my project, as much of this is hidden behind the footsteps into the cab.

A more significant challenge is the chassis itself. In this case, Bachmann have made the chassis U shaped so that the side tanks are weights, which is fine, but they extend 10mm further forward on the 56XX than the side tanks of No.5 do, so some machining required. The false underside of the boiler/smokebox that is used for housing the DCC socket will also have to be factored in, so unlike No.29, where I turned the chassis around and had the socket in the firebox, No.5 will have a pocketed front on the boiler, right into the smokebox, with care in the CAD design, this shouldn't be visible.

Thanks, Paul.
Paul_sterling
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

Work continues on No.5

After a break in the summer, working on other projects, I've been able to get back on with No.5, and the main thing has been establishing overlaps between the current donor chassis, and the proposed model.

Image

In this pic, I've modelled the front cut outs of the chassis block, which is nominally 5mm inboard, and 4mm back on the U shaped casting of the 56xx chassis block. this will allow the tanks to be modelled dimensionally the same as No.5 really is, so no forward extensions of the tanks. It would be better if a full 4mm slice was removed from the U of the block, so that there is daylight under the boiler, as No.5 has.

Image

Image

This is how she's looking at present, she's a lovely loco to CAD up, much easier than No.29 was, though I do have a better set of drawings for No.5, and with better knowledge of DLP printing now (as well as another printing experiment with the Q1) I can print complete locos in one go satisfactorily, so stronger, combined structures, and better options on detailing, not to mention, leaner, thinner structures.

I'm using a less time consuming method this time, of CAD'ding just one side, and mirroring it, asymmetrical details added last. All of the Stephenson 0-6-2's at Lambton, at one point or another seem to have sported small boxes on the running plate behind the tanks/to the sides of the cabs, sometimes, on one side, or the other, or both. These little boxes will help with packaging the rear of the chassis, as well as giving a secure support point to sit the shell on the chassis, but there is always a risk of criticism, as No.5 doesn't have these at present. So the alternative is to also cut this area of the chassis, have the boxes excluded, and then add them if needed.

I won't deny, I had never been a huge fan of No.5, not compared to No.29 at least, it doesn't have the iconic hooter, is a more austere looking engine, and hasn't really run in my lifetime, or not in my memory anyway, so I don't have the same affinity with it, but the more I work on this project, the more I'm warming to it, especially as I'm hoping that any subsequent kit sales, will go towards financial support for the LLT in bringing her back to steam.

Thanks, Paul.
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Hatfield Shed »

Paul_sterling wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:47 pm ... Bachmann 56XX, DCC ready ... chassis...

A more significant challenge is the chassis itself. In this case, Bachmann have made the chassis U shaped so that the side tanks are weights, which is fine, but they extend 10mm further forward on the 56XX than the side tanks of No.5 do, so some machining required. The false underside of the boiler/smokebox that is used for housing the DCC socket will also have to be factored in...
I have had one of these - suitably 'adjusted' by much cutting of the main casting - powering an old whitemetal body kit, working for some dozen years now. Has 15mm cut off the 'filling' of the side tanks to enable it to fit, no trouble whatsoever from this since. (I also 'shaved' the front end of the plastic motor cradle screw 'post' to eliminate it from view under the boiler, and this has not affected the stability of the motor cradle; but by your description it will not be necessary to cut back that far for no 5.).
Paul_sterling wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:47 pm ... I had wondered how Bachmann had approached the issue of the fixing of the trailing truck. ... Bachmann have used a cylindrical mount to provide rotation, and a narrow chassis with lots of sideplay to provide the variance factor. It works well...
This feature gave no trouble initially, but after a few years operation became track sensitive, presumably as the action became a little more free. With the truck leading, it would occasionally climb a facing point crossing (nothing smaller than Peco's medium radius and 36" radius kit points) and cause a derailment. The cure was simplicity itself, prevent the cylindrical mount rotating, by gluing on two shims bearing on the axle. Thus held permanently 'straight ahead' the previous reliability was restored.

All the best with your interesting project.
Paul_sterling
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

Hatfield Shed wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:45 pm
Paul_sterling wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:47 pm ... Bachmann 56XX, DCC ready ... chassis...

A more significant challenge is the chassis itself. In this case, Bachmann have made the chassis U shaped so that the side tanks are weights, which is fine, but they extend 10mm further forward on the 56XX than the side tanks of No.5 do, so some machining required. The false underside of the boiler/smokebox that is used for housing the DCC socket will also have to be factored in...
I have had one of these - suitably 'adjusted' by much cutting of the main casting - powering an old whitemetal body kit, working for some dozen years now. Has 15mm cut off the 'filling' of the side tanks to enable it to fit, no trouble whatsoever from this since. (I also 'shaved' the front end of the plastic motor cradle screw 'post' to eliminate it from view under the boiler, and this has not affected the stability of the motor cradle; but by your description it will not be necessary to cut back that far for no 5.).
Paul_sterling wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:47 pm ... I had wondered how Bachmann had approached the issue of the fixing of the trailing truck. ... Bachmann have used a cylindrical mount to provide rotation, and a narrow chassis with lots of sideplay to provide the variance factor. It works well...
This feature gave no trouble initially, but after a few years operation became track sensitive, presumably as the action became a little more free. With the truck leading, it would occasionally climb a facing point crossing (nothing smaller than Peco's medium radius and 36" radius kit points) and cause a derailment. The cure was simplicity itself, prevent the cylindrical mount rotating, by gluing on two shims bearing on the axle. Thus held permanently 'straight ahead' the previous reliability was restored.

All the best with your interesting project.
Thanks Hatfield.

Was the 56XX the older split chassis design? or an early Bachmann upgrade? I guess the latter, as I think the split chassis had a trailing truck.

I've done a little more work
Image
Front sand boxes and splashers are now flanged. they are modelled about as thin as I can get away with printing, 0.5mm, they're quite a tight fit in full size nevermind OO.

Image

Next is the internal structure of the tanks. retaining a good quantity of the Bachmann chassis block will eliminate the need for me to ballast the tanks like I had to on No.29, but it does mean they will benefit from additional bracing, important to reduce the amount of external support structure required on the printer. The ribs are a 0.1mm clearance from the chassis block, so will contribute towards good alignment and support of the body when assembled.

Paul.
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Hatfield Shed »

Paul_sterling wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:20 pm ...Was the 56XX the older split chassis design? or an early Bachmann upgrade? I guess the latter, as I think the split chassis had a trailing truck...
The upgrade, conventional wiper pick up.
Paul_sterling
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

I've made more progress on No.5 in recent weeks, having been sidetracked by various other jobs.

ImageCapture 20201110 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

Smokebox door has been modelled, I've laid the picture besides a shot of No.5 in Pickering, I will attribute this right hand picture to its owner, once I find out who it is.

Chassis mods has been a significant part of this project. Obviously I avoid modifying things where I can, but in the case of No.5, an awful lot of the features would have disrupted the accuracy of the locomotive.

To do this work, I removed the wheelsets, with care. I covered the motor and gearbox with gaffer tape, and regularly blew them out with compressed air, nothing appears to have got into the motor/gearbox, but others would have probably removed them to do this work, I didn't as I did not know how to without damaging anything. All cuts were made with a junior hacksaw and second file.

Image
The rear of the side tank upright weight has been brought forward 2mm, the rear footplate/backhead section, has been cut inwards towards the centre of the chassis by 3.6mm.

Image

Image

The top surface of the side tank weights has been reduced by 1mm.

The front is where the heaviest modifications has been made, and largely the most cruical to the project
Image
The side tanks were brought backwards by 5mm, and the boiler undersection, was narrowed to 12mm.

Image

Front sandboxes but off, but brake equipment left on (needs a bit of care in this area to avoid chopping both off).

Image

and 1.8mm off the front end of the plastic section of the chassis.


Thanks, Paul
Paul_sterling
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

With the chassis done, I was able to make a first off mule test print to see how the CAD matched up in reality.

Image

First fit wasn't brilliant, there was significant clashes at the front end, but these could be amended with a small file, and the changes noted. A lot of the issues stemmed from measuring the Bachmann chassis, and any errors I had introduced there, now happily dialled out.

Image

Later prints will be in resin, so surface finish and detail will be improved.

Image

Image
I couldn't resist giving it a whisp over with black paint, even if it does show up the crudeness of the surface finish.

Image



This is the pic I've been waiting for, just under two years this Lambton project has been going for, and I have finally been able to picture 29 and 5 together.
Image

Image
Paul_sterling
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

A second mule print achieved its aims of eliminating the clearance issues on the first. it also allowed better references for enclosures within the cab to be made.



Image
The rear of the motor/gearbox protrudes into the cab a little, which is a shame, but its a small, dark cab, so I don't think this will cause too many problems.

Image

Paul.
Paul_sterling
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

Hello everyone.

A bit more progress on No.5

After the trial FDM print, I was able to resolve some minor tight spots on the shell, and produce a couple of resin prints. This is the first loco I've designed for printing in one homogeneous build, though the Q1 now successfully prints in one piece in resin as well.

The first two prints were comparative trials to see what slice height i would use, 0.02 or 0.03, both printed well, but whilst 0.03 was a 27 hour print, 0.02 was 47, for not a lot of real gain. Both were angled at 50 degrees to fit on the build plate, the loco is too long to fit on the Photon S flat, and curved surfaces print better at an angle anyway.

Happy with the prints, I made some revisions to the cab roof (better internal ribs, and slightly thicker roof plate. I've since been concentrating on the detail features, though some of these will probably be somewhat diminished by the time prints are finished.

Image20201207 build pic 2 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

The features below the running plate are my own design of sacrificial frame, so that the full length of the running plate it supported by very strong build supports, and then just cut away with a scalpel, this removes a key issue that has been a blight on resin prints (for me), which is sagged or not straight running plates, and why I persisted with printing No.29 with FDM running plates. I now use this feature on almost all of the "start points" for the builds, so that these edges are crisp and straight.

Image20201207 build pic 3 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr
Same shot, but without the sacrificial frame.

Image20201207 build pic 4 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr
The footplates on the rear of the tank are heavier than the originals (which would be around 0.175mm thick and very borderline for printing).

Image20201207 build pic 5 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

Image20201207 build pic 6 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr
No.5 has an LMS Vacuum Ejector fitted, pretty much since the beginning of its preservation life, I could not quite replicate the tapering outlet to the flange, but it is reasonably representative. Anyone who does an NCB/LHJC version, or even 42/10, probably won't need this feature much!

ImageInside motion by Paul Sterling, on Flickr
The 56XX donor chassis has a large flat area below the boiler, these days Bachmann would probably fill it with inside motion, so I've made up a small card with some crude Stephenson link motion parts visible.

Image20201207 build pic with inside motion by Paul Sterling, on Flickr
Not likely to really show that well with No.5's lubricators blocking the view, but during most of her working day, she only had one on the right hand side, and 10 used a twin set up on the left, 57 was largely the same as 5, 42 had one on each side. No.5 got the same set up as 42 during the NCB era.

Paul.
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

I've also made the CAD modify-able, to allow me to print the other members of the class, 10, 42 and 57, as well as No.5 "as built", 5 and 10 were supplied together in 1909, 42 followed in 1920, and 57 arrived in 1934, under the guise of Hawthorn Leslie, indicative of the merger of RS and HL, which did not officially take place till 1937, but I believe was largely in place when 57 was built in Newcastle, rather than Darlington.

They had loads of modifications during their Lambton time, particularly the bunker raves, as they all started with a fenced/coal rail, and a curved/flare to the rear of the bunker, but No.5 ended up with solid raves, and no rear flare on the bunker. Lubricators, no two of them were the same really. 5 started with one on the RHS splasher, and finished with one on each side, 42 had a Siamese twin set of lubricators on the left, 10 had a similar setup to 42 for a period (the end of its career '62-69), and 57, the camera-shy one, was similar to No.5, at some points.

Their works plates were either on the front Left splasher, or front left side of the cab, cabside tool boxes (or are they sand boxes) were changed at various points, sometimes they had one on each side, sometimes one on a side, they were different sizes from side to side etc.

Cab steps were changed as well, 5 has a wide flare on the rear steps, by largely parallel on the front, 10 and 42 had the same as 5, but 57 had parallel steps with a small flare at the bottom, front and rear, and its steps were in a slightly more sensible position than the other 3, the front steps allowing the crew to climb onto the running plate, whereas 5, 10, 42 all has their steps "half and half", half on the running plate, and half beside the tanks!

Safety valves changed across each engines life too, short and tall ross-pops, a very tall type which I'm not familair with. Whistles even more so, 5 has sported a similar hooter to 29, in both vertical and horizontal cab-top position, as well as a complicated firebox top arrangement that would make a brass band proud.

Paul.
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

A few more pics of the resin printed shell(s).

ImageIMG_3828 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

ImageIMG_4073 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

A few of the Lambton Fleet
ImageIMG_4094 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

This is still a test piece, even if it is in black now.
Image
IMG_4096 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr


Later generation print with cab detail added.
ImageIMG_4112 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

ImageIMG_4114 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

No.5 and No.42 (42 was a trial print, and has been ruled out/reprinted due to its warped handrails and coal rail).
ImageIMG_4116 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

And one in print
ImageIMG_3812 by Paul Sterling, on Flickr

Paul.
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Including wear, tear and depreciation allowance on the printing machine, cost of materials, and time (if you allow for its value in a hobby), how much do you reckon it costs you to throw away a full, reject body shell?

If we're including a value for time, does a portion of the design time also count towards the cost of a reject print?
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Paul_sterling
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Paul_sterling »

Hi Graeme,

Based on a few quick calculations of the costs of material, and screen life, a shell costs around £10, and cost of failures would be built into the costs of successful prints. Amortisation of the printer depends on how long you pick for it to be amortised over, but it would be between £5-10 per shell on top.

Paul.
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Re: Lambton, Hetton and Joicey Colliery (R. Stephenson & Co.) No.5 build

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Thanks Paul, it's always interesting to compare costs of different methods, if those costs can actually be estimated of course...
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