NER/LNER Signalling question

[Trev21]

I am trying to work out the signalling at the south end of Melmerby Station – the NER station north of Ripon, on the Harrogate-Northallerton line.

The line there split 3 ways; right, to the main line from Thirsk; straight ahead on the main line to Northallerton; and a branch to the left, to Masham. The signal box was just to the south of the station.

In later BR days, this was controlled by a 3-arm signal, and very obvious what-was-what.

But in NER/LNER times, it is less clear.

Evidence 1:
OS 1/2500 maps consistently suggest there were 2 signal posts on the approach, both shortly before the cross-over to the Thirsk. One adjacent to the main line, but the other was adjacent to a siding which joined the main line just before the station.

Evidence 2:
The only pre-BR photo I have is the one below, which appears to show a two-arm signal just south of the box. This is clearly in LNER days, and a train is proceeding with the right-hand, major arm, set ‘off’. That would seem clear enough – the other smaller post is for the branch to Masham.

So – what’s the problem? Well, where was the signal for the Thirsk route? If it was as I would think, before the N’allerton/Masham signal, then if it is set ‘off’ would that not indicate the route to Thirsk was selected? And if ‘on’, and a single signal, then surely a train couldn’t pass it to get to the clear signal ahead…..? OR – was this the stand-alone signal adjacent to the siding on the map/drawing, and could be passed when ‘on’ by trains not using the Thirsk route?

OR – would that signal have been to control trains from the (very minor) siding?

Why do I care? Because I’m building a layout with working signals, and I haven’t a clue how to set these up! The fact BR changed this to a 3-pole bracket signal rather tells us things were indeed perhaps a little confusing… but then I know nowt about signalling.

All advice very welcome!

[HarrogateRailProject]

Hello! I may not be a signalling expert and I suppose this question is better left to them, but having attempted to study it for my project on Harrogate I believe I can at least offer my understanding and some of the evidence from photographic collections I have at my disposal.
I believe that since the Northallerton/Thirsk line split before the crossing that any signalling before the junction towards the crossing - and maybe some between the two lines before it - are for both lines and become applicable dependent on the dolls (the little masts the arms are on). Because it's a junction, presumably before the three-arm bracket signal there was a maybe two-arm one of maybe NER origin? The smaller doll indicates the lesser of the two routes, and the taller one the more important: I reason this to be why in the third image you can clearly see the taller doll cleared for the Northallerton Line while the smaller one indicates for the much lesser and practically disused Masham branch. The Thirsk line as you probably know was the less important of the two routes, as save for the odd goods traffic and local commuter, most were sent via Northallerton. It's also worth mentioning that the route to Masham during the NER period was assessed via a junction at the North end of the Northallerton-bound platform, and was signalled with one of these bracket signals as is shown in a 1907 picture that can be found on the Disused Stations website.

I'll check to see if any of my books make reference to the arrangements here and will get back to you soon
Sorry if this is a touch informal, I'm somewhat new on here.

[Trev21]

Hello! I may not be a signalling expert and I suppose this question is better left to them, but having attempted to study it for my project on Harrogate I believe I can at least offer my understanding and some of the evidence from photographic collections I have at my disposal.
I believe that since the Northallerton/Thirsk line split before the crossing that any signalling before the junction towards the crossing - and maybe some between the two lines before it - are for both lines and become applicable dependent on the dolls (the little masts the arms are on). Because it's a junction, presumably before the three-arm bracket signal there was a maybe two-arm one of maybe NER origin? The smaller doll indicates the lesser of the two routes, and the taller one the more important: I reason this to be why in the third image you can clearly see the taller doll cleared for the Northallerton Line while the smaller one indicates for the much lesser and practically disused Masham branch. The Thirsk line as you probably know was the less important of the two routes, as save for the odd goods traffic and local commuter, most were sent via Northallerton.

Thanks for that. That largely reflected my knowledge and initial thoughts. The relative importance of the two lines - Thirsk/Northallerton - did vary over time, mainly due to improvements in the ECML; at times one was seen as the 'main' route, then the other.

The problem I hit with that logic is the data doesn't tie together. The only really relevant photo we have is at least helpful; it shows a clearly LNER train, (so the date is right for my purposes) passing the signal box heading to Northallerton, with the right-hand, major signal, 'off'. So although a clearer pic would be nice, we can deduce that the subsidiary signal to its left would be for Masham, and continuing with your logic there would have been another, earlier signal, either one arm or two, to control the Thirsk crossing. All good - except the OS maps don't show that.

So - either your - and indeed my - logic is wrong, the photo we have is misleading, or the map is wrong. The fact your logic matches mine lead me to think it is the map that is wrong, and we are right. But then neither of us are signalling experts as you say....

The signal in the 1907 pic, controlling south-bound trains, is interesting, and again I have no way of telling for sure how long that remained, as all pics I have of the later arrangements - there were many variants here it seems - are in BR days. However I do have a series of pics of the resignalling work being done in 1913 (when the Masham platform was moved) and there is no sign of that signal having work done on it.

I do incidentally have a lot of photos of this line, especially of Ripon but a few of Harrogate as it was, and if of any interest do PM me as you are welcome to anything you don't already have.

[HarrogateRailProject]

I would conclude then that the OS map is wrong along with you. I have seen errors around Harrogate station on one of the maps, so there is room for error. And given two of us can be backed up with photographs says something, surely. If you take other junctions as example, Wetherby South Junction for instance, there's a bracket signal (Home and distant on the doll on the higher-priority line, and a home on the lesser line's doll). Dragon junction is signalled this way so it would somewhat appear to be a standard by the NER.

Are you a member of the NER Association? They have a book on the track diagrams Harrogate and routes to the East that shows Melmerby in what I can presume is the 1910's/20's. Annoyingly it only shows the station on the Thirsk route from the junction onwards, but weirdly there's no signalling until after the station in the Thirsk direction. There appears to be the double-bracket from the 1907 picture protecting the crossing on the station side which in the least means it survived until the days of the LNER as they felt no reason to remove it (They put crosses over disused signals). Given the diagram is for the Melmerby - Thirsk line, it would suggest the signalling for this junction and crossing must have been a long distance from the station, maybe as a precaution? Wormald Green and Nidd Bridge both had protecting signals at a distance for their crossings, likely in anticipation of higher-speed trains needing time to react in an emergency. The protecting signals at Goldsborough were set back from the station before the crossing was altered to a bridge in the 1930's due to countless accidents, and if I recall correctly Melmerby suffered an accident where a kid ran through the gates in the 1900's!
There is another track diagram book that I will hopefully be getting soon from the NERA which ought to show it in greater detail - I will happily send details of you need them.

I also would be very thankful for any pictures of Harrogate, as I'm modelling it in the late NER, early LNER period.

[JonBates]

Hello

I have the line diagram for the Leeds Northern (NERA publication)

That shows the signal in your LNER photo to be after the Thirsk Junction. There seems to be another Junction signal about 7 chains further south and it looks to have the main line signal for Northallerton and the minor route signalled for Thirsk.

Jon

PS I’m not a signalling expert either!

[JonBates]

Just to add that from the line diagram I think that the two signal posts that you have identified on the map are both single post signals facing in opposite directions....presumably controlling the siding.

Jon

[Trev21]

That shows the signal in your LNER photo to be after the Thirsk Junction. There seems to be another Junction signal about 7 chains further south and it looks to have the main line signal for Northallerton and the minor route signalled for Thirsk.

Ah. Now why didn't I think of getting that! Maybe because I didn't know they had it! I can feel a need to spend money coming on... ouch!

Many thanks indeed for that Jon, really helpful and makes perfect sense.

It's a bit surprising they had full signals there for the siding. Some of the signals at Ripon seem very odd - and the explanation seems to be there was not enough space between the tracks for the signals, so they had to go outside the parallel sidings (later replaced by bracket signals). Wonder if a bit of that is going on here. Anyway - fantastic info, thanks!

[Trev21]

I've tried to reply, but my post seems to be stuck in 'moderation'. Nothing wrong with the post I'm sure, just needs somebody to check it I suspect.....

[richard]

yep - apologies a busy weekend here. After 5 posts your posts will go straight through.

[Trev21]

No worries Richard - and that makes 5

I did already have an ID, but had forgotten the details so started a new one!

[PGBerrie]

In Railway Memories No. 23 there is the same picture as at the top with the three-way splitting signal protecting the down line. The right arm is for Thirsk, the middle arm for Northallerton and the left arm for Masham.

The book says that the "north curve" at the station, which had been disused for several years was lifted in 1955. At the same time the station was resignalled.

There are a couple of other pictures of Melmerby in the book showing signals.
Peter

[Trev21]

Indeed so Peter. I have that book, and the pic at the head of this thread is the one to which you refer.
There were certainly many changes to the signalling at this station over the years!

The 'north curve' to which you refer wasn't part of the station, but was further down the line. It was part of a 'triangle' of 'north' and 'south' curves, which gave access to a MOD site. The north curve was removed, and the south remained as the only rail access to the site.