4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

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Bunkerbarge
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4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Bunkerbarge »

Wow!, I'm in shock.  I have just opened up my subscription copy of Hornby Magazine for February 2021 and am amazed to see a range of 4 and 6 wheeled coaches are to be released by Hornby in around January or February this year.  This is obviously in a direct head to head with Hattons, whose Genesis range is due to be released in Q2 of this year.  The similarities between the two ranges is quite surprising with generic models being quoted along with similar liveries and configurations from both suppliers.  There are even lit or unlit options from both ranges

I must admit to feeling slightly uneasy to see such aggressive marketing tactics and, while I do tend to see the big vendors such as Hattons and Rails as getting a little bit too greedy with their frequent incursions into the manufacturing arena, taking them on head to head in this way will only end in tears somewhere.  Particularly cut throat to see that Hornby have made their announcement at the time of release, which is only a couple of months before Hattons, who have been open about their range for a couple of years now!

We saw exactly the same process occur with the Terrier, which led to a fall out with Rails, so is this good for the industry or not?  In one way I can see that Hattons releasing their intentions early and allowing input from the public to guide future liveries and configurations has to be good for us.  We will probably loose that as every player from now on will be reluctant to declare future developments for fear of a competitor beating them to it.

Interesting times.
Mercator II
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Mercator II »

My thoughts on this:

Hornby had this in the process when Hattons announced their range, and where further along than Hattons

It takes a long time from idea, to final production, to shelves, and Hornby tend to only announce something that will usually hit the shelves within the next 12 months (although we do frequently see delays)

I also think that these would of mostly likely been an extra last year as part of the 100 celebrations, but given all the global challenges we are still experiencing, didnt arrive in time

The only thing I think they might of done to trump Hattons will be the lightning system

Now I know that these are not to everyone's taste, but starting at under £30 a pop, will be very appealing for many as an affordable way to give that feeling

As a hobby, we are a vast collective of people, each with different skills, abilities and wallet sizes. I think it's a smart move from both Hornby and Hattons to do this, as they know that as well as box openers, there will undoubtedly be modellers out there that will see them and modify to suit own tastes

As said at the top, just my thoughts, and I will always be in awe of the likes of Graeme, Mike, Jonathan etc..who inspire lesser mortals

Stay safe, and happy modelling
oOo

Brian

Garage Hobbit!!
Modelling in 00 on my heritage line, very GCR inspired
Dave S
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Dave S »

Mercator II wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:06 pm My thoughts on this:

Hornby had this in the process when Hattons announced their range, and where further along than Hattons

It takes a long time from idea, to final production, to shelves, and Hornby tend to only announce something that will usually hit the shelves within the next 12 months (although we do frequently see delays)

I also think that these would of mostly likely been an extra last year as part of the 100 celebrations, but given all the global challenges we are still experiencing, didnt arrive in time
These have been discussed extensively elsewhere.

In the later part of 2019 Hornby measured up the Stroudley stock at the Bluebell (?) with the possible intention to model it, in the meantime Hattons announced their project 'Genesis' which gained some approval from those that want to run trains with appropriate liveried stock (even though not accurate) and so Hornby took the work they'd done and created a similar 'generic' 4 & 6W that they could livery in various pre-grouping colours.
Some have argued that Hornby have undercut Hattons, but Hornby have produced a few ficticious models over the years, and these just add to those. It's likely that both will sell ok.
Bunkerbarge
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Bunkerbarge »

Interesting, thanks for your thoughts gents, I thought there would be far more to it than I knew. I agree there will always be a market for items that give a suitable feel to a layout without necessarily being perfect in every detail, aimed at those of us who maybe do not have the skills or the time to produce bespoke models.

I actually think a train of these will look particularly good behind a suitable loco.

Can anyone help with a question, the Hornby ones with lights are operated by a battery and a magnetic switch in each coach, the Hattons ones with lights, I cannot find anywhere information on whether they are battery or track powered and whether they are switchable or not.

Can anyone enlighten me? (Really sorry for that one!)
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

I had quite definitely hoped to make some use of the Hatton's vehicles, with modifications and a re-paint if necessary, but as the designs were finalized and I studied more closely the various pre-group LNER coaches that might interest me, I could only come to the conclusion that the Hattons items would be useless for my purposes. The style and the proportions of the side panelling rule them out as far as I am concerned for GNR, GCR, LDECR and GER six or four wheeled stock. The roof shape and therefore the tops of the ends are totally unsuitable for the GNR. I wonder if the same is true for NBR 6 wheelers too, although they would be well out of my modelling area. I'm not sure if the panel styles are any closer to NER pattern, but as the NER was very well-on with the process of eliminating its six wheelers and replacing them with bogie vehicles before 1923, as well as being "wrong area" again for me, that is academic.
Although I reckoned that some features of the panelling could be altered, apart from being a lot of work to do that would still leave the vehicles with wrong compartment / door / window layouts and of the wrong lengths to be decent models of anything "real" that I had in mind. Cutting and shutting the sides in several places would solve the problem, but the underframes would then have to be altered to the right lengths too. The combination of cost and effort seemed unreasonable, compared to say doing something similar but starting from a much cheaper plastic kit.
Having looked briefly at what Hornby now have on offer, it would seem that much the same formula has been applied to the style and proportions of the side panelling, so while the vehicles may have more resemblance to those found on some pre-group lines in the midlands, the west and the south, they seem to me just as unhelpful to a proper LNER modeller as are the Hattons items.
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mick b
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by mick b »

Hattons 6 wheel versions match the sides of NER 6 wheelers quite/very well .

As you cannot find anything similar in any kits , unless you wish to pay stupid prices for D&S they are better than nothing.

I will wait to see the end layouts of the Coaches are like before buying any . The Roofs are easy to convert.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

mick b wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:08 pm Hattons 6 wheel versions match the sides of NER 6 wheelers quite/very well .
Interesting.
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markindurham
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by markindurham »

mick b wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:08 pm Hattons 6 wheel versions match the sides of NER 6 wheelers quite/very well .

As you cannot find anything similar in any kits , unless you wish to pay stupid prices for D&S they are better than nothing.

I will wait to see the end layouts of the Coaches are like before buying any . The Roofs are easy to convert.
I'll see Atlantic's "Interesting" and raise to "Very Interesting" :mrgreen:

I was looking at the Poppys Woodtech NER coaches in 4mm, but I haven't heard any reports about them yet.

Mark
Last edited by markindurham on Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NZRedBaron
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by NZRedBaron »

mick b wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:08 pm Hattons 6 wheel versions match the sides of NER 6 wheelers quite/very well .
I'd heard that too, while Hornby's six wheelers are supposedly based on the ones built by the North British Railway; could be a good match to run behind Maude.
mick b
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by mick b »

Based on Stroudley Southern Region Coaches according to RM Web site , you couldnt get much further from Scotland.
jwealleans
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by jwealleans »

Unless they were all built by the same contractor, of course. That would be a sensible and authentic way of producing a model with multiple applications.
Bunkerbarge
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Bunkerbarge »

So accepting that they are all generic which ones would you learned gents say are the more "credible" versions for LNER use?
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NZRedBaron
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by NZRedBaron »

Depends on the exact era; from what I understand, in the early days they retained the GN style varnished teak look, but as time passed and they got more tatty, they were repainted into a plain brown colour.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Use of the word "retained" is potentially misleading, surely? These generic models look nothing like the GNR vehicles, so they won't be of any use for the purposes of properly portraying vehicles "retaining" GNR livery.
The GCR fleet of course WAS already in something fairly similar to GNR / LNER livery, being either varnished teak, varnished other wood, or possibly a painted similar finish, according to its date of construction.
The question of which other constituent companies' carriages were put into LNER teak livery after 1923 and which ones went into plain brown is hotly debated. Photographic and written evidence is incomplete.
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kimballthurlow
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by kimballthurlow »

mick b wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:10 pm Based on Stroudley Southern Region Coaches according to RM Web site , you couldnt get much further from Scotland.
Yes but I believe engineering staff at the NBR had very strong links to Stroudley ......

Kimball
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