4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

This forum is for the discussion of railway modelling of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard

S.A.C. Martin

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

Are they really "tat" though? Inaccurate, yes, but I want something to run behind my locomotives. No point having a GNR passenger engine without a passenger train to put behind it. If it were up to me, there wouldn't be GNR or LNER versions at all from either Hornby or Hattons - and you'd want a separate tool up to create a generic set of GNR vehicles with the correct roofline.

But that incurs further costs for a manufacturer, and most people building trainsets are happy to buy inaccurate coaches in an approximation of the right livery, as borne out by the discussions here and elsewhere. Is it right? Is it wrong? I think we need to stop kidding ourselves - individuals will decide for themselves what they are happy with, and manufacturers will only go so far in terms of incurring costs versus the potential return.

I wasn't entirely happy with the Hornby coaches and made modifications to mine to make them more "GNR like" but the roof line is a step too far in terms of modelling time I am happy to devote.
S.A.C. Martin

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

mick b wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:34 amGeneric are far from perfect ,but better than nothing.
Probably the best summation on this thread. Apologies for missing it in my original post.
Dave S
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:46 pm

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Dave S »

mick b wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:34 am If you are a modeller ?.
There are simply zero decent accurate and/or sensibly priced kits relating to the LNER and pre grouping Coaches.
While not wishing to self promote, I am currently working on various etches for GN stock that I want and will make the etches available. I just need to sort out a decent roof.

The Generics look very nice but they're not for me. I looked at bashing some into the early GN Met Camm built coaches, but there is quite a big difference in the length as well as body detail.
john coffin
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by john coffin »

As the designer of a number of ex GNR loco kits, I have considered the production of pre-Gresley GNR carriages,
but know that very few of the loco kits we sell are to those who are pre-grouping modellers.

Whether that is cause or effect, I do not know, but being a modeller is an interesting question.
As you design kits, you become less of a modeller, but I have built stuff in the past, and as a result
have kits on the market that many agree are both accurate and easyish to build so yes, I am a modeller!

Apart from the J52, and the N2, there are no RTR GNR locos, so the point is moot.
The important thing is to understand that it is a slippery road if you accept less than good,
that includes kits but more importantly gives the big box makers the idea that nobody cares.

As for stuff from Shapeways, " we ain't in Kansas(EEC) any more". As some one who has a 3d printer,
I still see it as nothing more than an aid to production, not a production tool, it is not properly economic.
It takes a long time to produce the artwork, and each item may no longer need your help when being printed
but it still costs you money.

Show me a low volume product that anyone will buy if it is not produced at the same price as RTR volume,
and I will show some one who is not doing it for money.

The real problem is people not being prepared to learn the skills necessary to make things themselves, they
want it on a plate, and cheap.

Paul
S.A.C. Martin

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

john coffin wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:04 pmApart from the J52, and the N2, there are no RTR GNR locos, so the point is moot.
The important thing is to understand that it is a slippery road if you accept less than good,
that includes kits but more importantly gives the big box makers the idea that nobody cares.
Bachmann C1 Atlantic.
Rapido Stirling Single.
Hornby J52
Hornby N2
Hornby A1 (possibly a bit late for the period)

A small pool no doubt, that is likely to get bigger in future. But nevertheless: RTR GNR does exist and has sold very well.
The real problem is people not being prepared to learn the skills necessary to make things themselves, they
want it on a plate, and cheap.

Paul
Not sure that's true or fair Paul. I build a lot of my own stuff, and others, and for others. But a £30 coach with an excellent livery application that can be modified relatively quickly into something I am more happy with? It's a no brainer at the moment.
pic1_resized.jpg
pic2_resized.jpg
pic3_resized.jpg
How many GNR kits for 4 and 6 wheel coaches are out there? What are the options? If that's a small pool requiring a high standard of skills, then it's going to reduce the demand.
User avatar
Dave
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1679
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Centre of the known universe York

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Dave »

They still don't look GNR, we should not accept second or third best generic stock, this just makes it look as if we don't care. Next it will be generic GWR/SR or some other railways carriages as Gresley bow ended stock. Why don't people care about what stock runs behind their locos, but get all in a fuss over minute details that are wrong on their locos. I'll get my coat, I can't be bothered any more with generic...............................
mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3727
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 4:43 pm

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by mick b »

Probably the main reason for the generic ranges is very simple. The demand for pre grouping at the moment is tiny compared to The Big Four Era and beyond.There will be very few people if anybody now, who ever saw them in their running days. RTR Companies are no going to risk the costs and potential losses of making/selling individual Company Coaches, if the current fad for pre grouping Locos continues , then perhaps they will make the biggest sellers something to pull. I wouldnt hold you breath on that in the short term.

I might consider buying some of the Hattons range when they arrive. The Hornby versions in comparison, are very poor.
User avatar
notascoobie
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 554
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:43 pm
Location: S Yorkshire

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by notascoobie »

I was getting despondent about the cancellation of Lord President. However, I managed to get a generic bugatti nosed P2. I'm much happier now. 😁
Attachments
MainThomasCGI.png
MainThomasCGI.png (85.26 KiB) Viewed 3815 times
User avatar
richard
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3385
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:11 pm
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas
Contact:

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by richard »

Is that a Minitrix or a Lima model? :-)

More seriously it is a personal decision as to how generic to accept a model. Look at UK wagons from the 70s or 80s, or even US box cars from the likes of Microtrains. The livery might have existed but did it really sit on that box van?

(and for that matter, even today most US steam models in N & HO are either USRA designs or generic)
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia
Hatfield Shed
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Hatfield Shed »

richard wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:03 pm ...it is a personal decision as to how generic to accept a model. Look at UK wagons from the 70's or 80's...
...or 90's, 2000's, 2010's, today; they are still in production. Same with some pretty generic locos, that Hornby continue to roll out. I am sure the generic coach thing will have similar legs. Since the generic models of the past have not prevented the development of superior models that better represent actual prototypes, there's nothing to fuss about.
James Harrison
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by James Harrison »

I see it in a slightly different light. I've got the Hattons 6-wheelers on order with a view to some bashing, but...

The point is often trotted out, 'manufacturers won't make pre-grouping carriages because the prospective market for a specific railway is so small as to be unrenumerative'. Well, make a generic carriage, put say 15 different liveries on it and see which ones sell in the biggest volume/quickest. That gives you a pretty good hint as to which companies have the largest followings. There's then nothing stopping that same manufacturer coming back for a second bite of the cherry, this time with accurate models for a given company.

You might argue, 'yes but by then anybody who wants carriages in such and such a livery will have them, so the market will be gone'- I reply that I've yet to meet the modeller who doesn't suddenly find they have room or need for another locomotive or another rake of carriages when the right offering is made. I'd also point out that by that logic, the demand for yet more iterations of A1s, A3s and A4s should have long ago dried up.

How does that little rhyme go?- "good, better, best" I believe? Well, I believe that, for the moment, these are 'good'- certainly better than the alternative, which is the square-root of naff-all. In time I would hope the demand proves strong enough that we get 'better' and 'best'.
ReptilianFeline
GER J70 0-6-0T Tram
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:44 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by ReptilianFeline »

I hope this thread isn't dead yet.

I am trying to model LNER in an ex-NER area, but my budget is limited so I'm looking at what I can scavenge and build myself from parts that are not meant for British outline. My scale is N (1:148) and in Sweden, most are German or Swedish outline in 1:160. So I'm looking at what I picked up before I decided exactly what and where to place my model, and I have some coaches with 6 wheels. I would love to turn them into something fairly accurate (I think the underside might be off a bit and so on) by cutting, making new from card stock or find a place that can provide a 3D shell, that will have the proper profile as well as proper livery.

I didn't know there were 4 or 6 wheel coaches. Would an ex-NER line still have a few for local services at the time of WW2?
Swedish railway modeller with odd ideas.
JASd17
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by JASd17 »

No, they would not.

John
User avatar
Dave
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1679
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Centre of the known universe York

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Dave »

The NER were very progressive and replaced their 6 & 4 wheeled carriages early on with bogie stock. By the time of grouping the majority had gone.
jwealleans
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 4208
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:46 am

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by jwealleans »

What was the light railway that borrowed J79s from the LNER. North Sunderland Tramway? Didn't they have 4 wheelers until well after the proper railways had done away with them?
Post Reply