4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Would the term for the Howlden roof profile be three-centre-round?

Reminds me of old school technical drawing lessons, with the option, for those who could not make a decent freehand job of an ellipse (even when only having to link up a series of plotted points), of using a pair of compasses set succsessively to two different radii to produce something that looks neat but isn't right.
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john coffin
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by john coffin »

Certainly Graeme that is how they are drawn in ALL post 1873 carriages until the Clerestories, or Gresley rooves.

Some references certainly state 3 centre roof to determine, where as some call it a Doncaster roof.
Research suggests that it was invented to offer more headroom at the corners of carriages whilst keeping
within the loading gauge. Whist Clerestories it is suggested were originally invented for two reasons,
both partially to do with the somewhat slower cross country routes on some Western USA railroads.
1/ To accommodate Stetsons (in the UK Stopvepipe hats replaced those)
2/ To help clear the cigar and cigarettes' smoke in the carriages.

Paul
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by kimballthurlow »

Yes elliptical was the wrong word.
It should have been a single-arc roof (if that is indeed what they are in the models).
Which description fits with the other description of a three-arc roof (or three-centre-round the same as many GNR loco cab roofs).

Regarding the English word clerestory, it is what it says - clear storey.
Architecturally it featured in many English Christian church designs, being a windowed walled roof vault to increase the amount of light entering the building.
I believe the clerestory roof in railway carriages was included for the same reason, evidenced by the glass (toplights) incororporated in the structure.

(Footnote off-topic: According to some German architectural commentators the increased light within the clerestory of a Christian church illustrated the splendour of God's realm as opposed to the darkness inhabited by earthly beings in the pews.)

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73082gibbers
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by 73082gibbers »

Evening chaps and chappettes!

Given that they're now slowly coming into stock with Hattons, what's everyone's thoughts on the Genesis coaches in-hand? I had the two Brakedown Train ones, H4-6FB-901A and H4-6BT-901C arrive from them on friday, and I have to say, they're very nice! details are crisp, and they are both nice and weighty too! I haven't been able to get the roof off of the Full Brake yet, however I've had a peek at the inside of the Brake 3rd Staff Riding coach, and I must admit, the little details such as the overhead luggage racks is a nice touch! I've only managed to pair them with a Hornby Terrier so far as I haven't got any BR(E) locos to hand currently, but they don't look out of place behind it!

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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

Personally think the two sets of coaches have been designed for very different purposes.

The Hornby ones are very clearly train set market. The Hattons one are very clearly collectors and modellers.

Both are generic coach types - Hornby's very clearly LBSCR in origin, meaning for some liveries they don't necessarily match well - Hattons are far more "generic" but also better detailed, meaning that they suit some of the pre-grouping liveries better.

Case in point, the GWR coaches from both - I feel if Hornby had got the colours better, however, then they wouldn't have been quite so shown up by comparison with the Hattons coaches.

I ended up cancelling my Hattons rake of GNR coaches and I don't actually regret it. My much modified Hornby ones will get further modification in due course with better buffers, which was the next thing which bothered me.

Mike Trice does I think the GNR 6-wheelers of which a few have been built and displayed on the internet. If you want true GNR coaches then kit build is the only way. These and the Hattons ones represent a bargain for something that "will do" on a train set if you don't look too closely.

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mick b
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by mick b »

No idea if mentioned before on here ?.

How many 6 wheelers were ever used in LNER days, and if so where ?

I doubt very much that the ends were Teak, more likely unlined Black.

Were any in Teak livery? and/or lined out , or I would presume plain Brown livery, Hattons version are plain LNER Brown a goodish match for ex NER Diagrams . I decided not to bother as very limited LNER use if any . Having typed that I believe there are some ex GER versions at Mangapps ? in such a LNER livery?
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Still plenty of GER 6 wheelers in the first post-grouping phase I believe Mick, and GNR 6 wheelers not extinct at that time even if many had been put on new/altered frames as part of an artic set. North Lincs had loads of former MS&LR/GCR and LDECR six wheelers forming local sets up to the late 1930s or possibly later still.
Teak with/without lining or plain brown? A hotly debated topic, with an annoying shortage of real evidence for the oft stated general application of brown.
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mick b
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by mick b »

Thanks Graeme re my GER area suspicions as at least correct. Appeasr to have been serioulsy underfunded Area , as it ended up with surplus ex NER Clerestories as well in LNER days.

Modelling the LNER/ NER Area as a preference I can ignore these at the present time. I have never seen any in Departmental use for the LNER/NER so far either other than one in use as a "Painters" Coach.
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

mick b wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:02 pm How many 6 wheelers were ever used in LNER days, and if so where ?
Early 20s - quite a few, mostly in Anglia on ex-GER suburban and branchlines.
I doubt very much that the ends were Teak, more likely unlined Black.
I have seen photos of both styles: the question is the lined/unlined variants, or if they were just painted plain brown, which the Hornbys definitely are not.
Having typed that I believe there are some ex GER versions at Mangapps ? in such a LNER livery?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embsay_an ... aloon,.jpg

This one is at the Embsay railway, along with this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... on%2C.jpg]
mick b
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by mick b »

This is the Coach I was thinking off.

https://009adventure.blog/2018/09/14/we ... gust-2018/


It appears to have been scumbled paint Teak with very pale Yellow/Cream lining.
018/
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Quite. Although the debate has taken place previously, sometimes at length, in various places that I don't now remember, that coach at least was clearly not in unlined plain brown, nor was it a still-prestigious, pre-group, main-line vehicle painted post-grouping to conform as nearly as possible to the new livery in order to "fly the flag" as effectively as possible until replaced by a new group-standard carriage. It was clearly one of the "lesser" carriages, but it still got the full treatment in the paint shop. A few other surviving images of high enough quality also show LNER graining and lining on "lesser" vehicles that were not in "teak" before the grouping.
It would seem that not everything of lesser rank went straight into plain brown, but there's not enough evidence to prove that everything was (at first) grained and lined.
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mick b
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by mick b »

Not much chance of much more information ever appearing now.

I have only ever seen in lower level Coaches, one ex NER Clerestory Teak unlined scumbled and one NER Brake 3rd in unlinded Teak scumble ,which I have modelled on my thread.
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