4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

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Woodcock29
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Woodcock29 »

As I have indicated elsewhere I see this as a missed opportunity for modellers of one company. Surely it would have been better if they had been modelled on a specific prototype because at least some modellers would have got accurate coaches - it doesn't matter which railway. Others would still have been just as happy with coaches painted in their particular livery as they will be now.

I wait in hope for someone to identify that they are close to coaches for a particular railway and that someone can use them as accurate coaches without much modification.

I'm happy they're not based on GN coaches as I would then be wondering if it was worthwhile continuing to build some of the kits I have in stock! Obviously a purely personal viewpoint.

Andrew
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NZRedBaron
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by NZRedBaron »

Well, as I might have mentioned before, my understanding is that Hornby's six-wheel coaches are fairly closely based on coach designs from the North British Railway.
exile
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by exile »

I am reliably informed that Hornby scanned the Stroudley stock (LBSCR) on the Bluebell Railway at a time which would be consistent with the release now of the 4 and 6 wheel coaches.

So to paraphrase the message at the end of films:

Any similarity to NBR stock extant or scrapped is purely coincidental.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Can anybody post up pictures or diagrams, ideally with dimensions shown, of the NBR vehicles which Hornby's products are now said to (closely) resemble, so that the panel styles, the layouts of doors / windows / compartments, the underframes and the sizes can be compared. Also can anybody tell us when such vehicles were introduced and when they were taken out of general service?
Factual evidence would be much more persuasive than an unsupported claim or rumour.
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Woodcock29
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Woodcock29 »

Graeme
I've just been perusing a thread on RMweb on building a 7mm NBR 6 wheeler looking for drawings and did find one for a 6 compt 3rd. Based on that and on the assumption the developer of the kit has got everything correct they have more similarity to the GN 6 wheelers in body style and roof contour. The panelling, whilst not exactly the same style as GN as there are slightly curved corners I think, but the body is triple layered like the GN.

Mind you the 3rd has 6 compts.

On this basis they don't appear to have any similarity to NBR coaches.

Andrew
Woodcock29
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Woodcock29 »

I've also discovered that the Tanfield Railway has a NBR 4 wheel 4 compt 1st. Not sure where we'd find any photos of that?

Andrew
mick b
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by mick b »

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

I have never studied the subject closely but like Andrew, my impression up to now was that NBR stock (or at least most of it that lasted significantly into the LNER period, including 6 wheelers) had that flat-ish centre, rounded eaves roof profile. like GNR, LSWR or Parker GCR vehicles, most unlike anything that Hornby or Hattons will offer, and with the three layers of panelling too. That's why I asked what other might know.

Mick: thanks for pointing me to that NBR four-wheeler info. Would you think it reasonable to assume that a family of such vehicles built as early as 1875, and therefore in many cases nearly fifty years old at the time of the grouping, would not generally be in normal service much into LNER days, even if those vehicles did happen to have, say, low arc roofs and simple round-corner panelling?

If the above points are correct, then for an LNER period model the RTR offerings do not seem to me to be credible as NBR carriages.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Woodcock29 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:37 am I've also discovered that the Tanfield Railway has a NBR 4 wheel 4 compt 1st. Not sure where we'd find any photos of that?

Andrew
Much at Tanfield, although of interest and better than nothing as a source of guidance to the modeller, is in poor, modified, post-departmental or post "hen shed" condition and is kept out in the open. Even some or all of the best stock that's in service is on non-original underframes obtained from much more modern wagons. I took some pictures there a year or so ago, but I don't recall noticing an NBR vehicle.
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S.A.C. Martin

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

So, having procured a few of these, I have done some cutting and shutting, and am fairly confident they can be passable GNR, or GER, or ECJS stock (in terms of "generic and can look at a first glance like them") by way of changing the roof vents, and adding correct stepboards - but noting the 1888 Fying Scotsman recreation from 1938, and some photographs of M&GN stock, I have one thing in particular that needs to be changed.

Stepboards. Two or one? Brake coaches always seem to have two levels of stepboards, but third and first class 6 wheel coaches appear to have a single stepboard or two. The 1888 recreation had single stepboards running on all of the coaches between the brake coaches. Other photographs I have seen show similar coaches with two.

One thing is for certain - the stepboards provided with the Hornby 6 wheelers need to be fitted at the solebar level and not below, as indicated in the instructions, for LNER and GNR stock.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Even if you have done cuts and shuts to get a better lengths and combinations of compartments (have you?) I'm not sure why you'd be worrying about accuracy of stepboards if you still have the wrong sort of panelling and strikingly wrong shapes of roofs. Or have you gone much further with corrections?
Perhaps you could explain / illustrate please?
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

Atlantic 3279 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:28 pm Even if you have done cuts and shuts to get a better lengths and combinations of compartments (have you?) I'm not sure why you'd be worrying about accuracy of stepboards if you still have the wrong sort of panelling and strikingly wrong shapes of roofs. Or have you gone much further with corrections?
Perhaps you could explain / illustrate please?
Lengths/Compartments - no, I've gone for making them generic but closer in some details (roof vents, stepboards, looking at changing the buffer heads or filing the concave bits away).

They're Stroudley types through and through - but with nice LNER paint jobs. Prior to receiving them the idea was to try and build the roofs up, but they're (with the exception of the brakes) one piece bodyshells and removing the roofs is nigh on impossible.

The stepboards are quite distinctive on some photographs of ECJS and M&GNR stock.
GNR brake in train_JPG version.jpg
RCTS September 1938 Stirling Single run_JPG Version.jpg
So this sort of modification - and making it the right colour (black!) - does lift the coach somewhat.
GNR2_JPG version.jpg
If you look at the bottom, the plan is to chop the brake ducket into the right shape, replace the rear panel with one more suitable, and to add the additional stepboard on, together with the right types of vents (Mike Trice from Shapeways).

Will it be accurate? No. Will it be better? Yes. Will it be worth it? No idea at this stage. I think I will also change the door handles too for completion's sake. Removing the extraneous rain strip helps with "GNR-ifying" it a bit more I feel.

The Hattons LNER 6 wheel coaches are likely to be better if you want something suitable for the ECJS 1888 Flying Scotsman recreation set, because of their inclusion of a full brake and better compartment choices. I just wanted to see if these could be made less (but somehow more?!) generic.

For the price they're good starting points for some modelling - but if you want an an actual GNR coach, start with a Mike Trice Shapeways kit I think, or any of the other GNR kits out there.
S.A.C. Martin

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

So I’ve finished the mods to my first of these coaches. See what you think! Link here: https://www.instagram.com/p/CLhbf2DHV9Z ... xfhlk3kwl0
ColHut
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Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by ColHut »

They look very nice.

Regards
S.A.C. Martin

Re: 4 and 6 Wheeled Coaches

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

Thank you - much appreciated. These are now much further along and I intend to post pictures in due course. With new panelling on the brake 3rds ends they really do look a lot more M&GNR, happily.
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