Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions (Complete...not quite)

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Jim de Griz
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Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions (Complete...not quite)

Post by Jim de Griz »

I've got about 11 old fashioned Hornby LNER coaches running about that I've been slowly improving. I've done a lot of the more obvious stuff, repainted/stained the sides to better represent teak, repainted the roof, the solebar and the insides etc. Now I'm considering if they can be made to look like a particular prototype without major surgery.

As they are too short to be LNER 61', it seemed to me that the obvious solution was to look at GNR 58' prototypes. Catch is, I can't find much about those on the internet so I'm not sure which prototype I should be considering.

I'm planning on buying an Isinglass drawing of a 58' composite as a guide. Before doing so, I was wondering if anyone had any advice on which I should look at? I was also wondering if anyone with experience of this sort of thing had any advice before I start cutting plastic.

Jim de Griz
Last edited by Jim de Griz on Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

I had a go, but for speed of progress I settled for typical features rather than attempting any particular diagrams. My efforts start here:
https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic. ... 944#p91944
& continue to page 213.

Between autumn 2018 and early 2020 I also did something much more elaborate, using adapted pieces of Margate sides as masters for parts of some cast resin sides for 12 wheeled dining vehicles, the rest of the sides and much else being produced from scratch. You'll find it if you search within those dates in the same thread.
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Phil Brighton
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Phil Brighton »

I used the old short hornby coaches as a base for conversion to GNR coaches. I drew my own sides from islinglass drawings and cut them on a cutter from plasticard. In terms of diagrams i did

58'6" GN 258 Corridor Brake 3rd
58'6 GN 248 Corridor 3rd
58'6 GN 78T Buffet
61'6" GN 164K Corridor Composite
58'6 GN 258 Corridor Brake 3rd

This was to make up a five coach set of the Cambridge buffet express.
P1011552small.jpg
Phil Brighton
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Phil Brighton »

Actually I lied I didn't do the 61'6" one in the end and did another shorter diagram.
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

I think most of us will let you off for lying Phil... :)

While it is not the stated objective here, another option if the plan is to cut and shut the Margate Hornby sides to get true layouts, is also to cut and shut the roofs and the underframes to get 61' 6" vehicles. That's something I did in the early 2000s.
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Jim de Griz
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Jim de Griz »

Thank you for the replies, the advice and the inspiration! I’m definitely going to have a go at the clerestory conversion once I’ve improved my skills a bit.

Short term I think the turnbuckle undercarriage might be the first thing I do, the angle irons seems like the most obviously late LNER feature that needs to be removed. Longer term I’ll look at rearranging doors etc, I’ve only had limited success doing that so far. (Tried my hand at scratch building the sides for a pair of Barnums a few months back, I’m quite proud of the result, but it was an emotional experience!)

Thinking bogies, I know some of the GNR stock was changed from Fox to Gresley bogies. Was that a universal thing or would you expect a rake to have a mixture of both? I’m thinking of getting some Isinglass bogies to replace the current hornby ones.

Jim de Griz
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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

As far as I can tell the changes of bogie type from Fox 4 wheel to Gresley Spencer-Moulton were not universal and I don't know if there was any specific period in which the bogie changes were made. Maybe somebody else can tell us? There were one or two minority types of four wheeled bogie too.

Complicating life, if you must, if you move on to the 12 wheelers there were at least two or three types of 6 wheeled bogie under the GN stock originally, with changes over time to visible things such as spring lengths and the attachment of springs to bogies adding to the variety. Some of the GN 6 wheeled bogies were either converted into, or replaced by, long-wheelbase four wheeled bogies, perhaps around 1920 (???)
If you expand the scope of the topic to include pre-group ECJS vehicles built at York or Cowlairs similar to GN style, then some more varieties of six wheeled bogie have to be considered too.
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NZRedBaron
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by NZRedBaron »

This is actually something I wanted to ask for a while now, actually; I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that the older Hornby Gresley coaches, like the ones in the RR range, are slightly too short to be prototypical for ECML trains; and that I also vaguely recall that he designed a few diagrams of coaches that were slightly shorter than the standard, for operations on ex-Great Eastern metals.

Are my recollections correct?
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

While the GE section vehicles were shorter than standard, their lengths and styles do not match the Hornby Margate "Gresleys".

Much of the following has no doubt been stated many times, in many places, but for information here:

Although many, or most, would probably agree that they look like Gresley LNER carriages, the Margate items were made to fit Margate's then-standard 57 foot underframe with trussing, battery boxes, dynamos and brake gear loosely modelled on nothing whatsoever to do with the LNER. They were thus too short to represent the standard vestibuled / gangwayed stock, and too long to represent the GE section versions. The only Gresley vehicles around the length of the models were pre-group Great Northern designs and they generally had different styles of windows and doors. Additionally, the models had their numbers of compartments plus their sizes (along with door and window sizes) "adjusted" to fit the length of the model, without regard to any particular real diagram, LNER or GNR. Along with the deeply recessed, under-size windows with beading incorrectly raised all the way around their edges, and the lower-middle horizontal beading on the bodyside being a touch high up, there are consequently still things wrong with the models even if you go to the trouble of cutting the sides (plus perhaps the roofs and underframes) into sections that can be re-arranged to match true diagrams. The very earliest examples on the market also had incorrect black ends to the "teak" versions, and rode on bogies that looked like BR Mk1s!
BUT, I took the view that, as they could often be had second-hand, or at one time "split from sets" by retailers, very cheaply, and that I had thus acquired a good number of them when I knew no better, it was worth trying to do something with them. Some others appear to have drawn the same conclusion, and I imagine that if you don't fancy latest prices for Hornby's super-detail models, don't fancy metalwork, or scratch-building, or a potentially fraught search for a reliable source of Kirk kits, or 3D prints that may not be perfect, or expensive / time-consuming / challenging etched kits, then Margate conversions may still have appeal.
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Hatfield Shed
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Hatfield Shed »

Jim de Griz wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:01 pm I've got about 11 old fashioned Hornby LNER coaches running about that I've been slowly improving... Now I'm considering if they can be made to look like a particular prototype without major surgery.

As they are too short to be LNER 61', it seemed to me that the obvious solution was to look at GNR 58' prototypes...
There's another possible use, articulation. A pair of the sleepers can be knocked about into an approximate representation of the Diagram 18/19 ECJS articulated twin first sleepers, which were on 56' frames; built from 1926 and last example withdrawn 1961.
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NZRedBaron
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by NZRedBaron »

Well that's annoying, but it almost feels like it's to be expected; it's probably just me, but I really do feel like, outside of locomotives, the LNER has never been well-served by either Hornby or Bachmann. Hornby has retread the same handful of vaguely Gresley carriage designs over and over, in some cases since the late 70's; while Bachmann has basically only ever done the post-war Thompson designs (and recently at that), and their current range only has them in early BR livery, to boot.

But that's enough about my damage, otherwise I'll just start ranting; I'm also pondering if the Gresley suburbans might have found their way out away from London et al, to secondary lines and such.
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Hatfield Shed »

NZRedBaron wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:57 am Well that's annoying, but it almost feels like it's to be expected; it's probably just me, but I really do feel like, outside of locomotives, the LNER has never been well-served by either Hornby or Bachmann...
The coach stock is problematic, because the varnished teak finish is a bear to reproduce commercially at a price the market will accept. (That Hornby 'fumbled' the gangwayed Gresley vehicles at a time when the varnished teak was affordable to produce, was a really unfortunate event; lovely varnished teak rendition on grossly inaccuarate bodies, sigh.)

Better news on the Gresley non-gangwayed, which are correctly rendered in body shape and beading.
NZRedBaron wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:57 am... if the Gresley suburbans might have found their way out away from London et al, to secondary lines and such.
Rest assured they did. They were secondary service stock rather than 'suburban' by intention.

(The most characteristic LNER 'suburban service' vehicles were the articulated sets of short small compartment bodies such as the Quadarts and Quints that operated out of Moorgate via KX and Liverpool Street respectively. This from the perspective of someone who thinks principally about the London end of the LNER system, and within that, the former GNR mostly...)
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by NZRedBaron »

Hatfield Shed wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 1:07 pm Rest assured they did. They were secondary service stock rather than 'suburban' by intention.
That's some good news then; I've got some of the Hattons Genesis coaches on order for a J15-hauled local 'stopper' for my layout, and I had the thought of running a Gresley non-corridor on it as a 'Market Day strengthener'; only question then being if i should use the composite coach with lavatory, or the full-length 3rd class.
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Hatfield Shed »

I would go for the brake 3rd in LNER days. People went to market for 'serious' sales and purchases, and could well be taking to or returning home from market with smaller livestock, feathered and furred, and bulky items like sacked vegetables, bolts of cloth, etc.. Extra van space would be an asset.
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Re: Hornby Gresley Coaches into GNR versions

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

NZRedBaron wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 1:36 pm That's some good news then; I've got some of the Hattons Genesis coaches on order for a J15-hauled local 'stopper' for my layout
Well, unfortunately, another point that has certainly been made elsewhere is that the Genesis coaches are just not good representations of the kind of six or four wheeled carriages that were typical of any of the pre-group LNER constituents.
More generally, if you want to represent LNER carriages more realistically, then you really need consult / study some reliable, formal sources of information, rather than simply relying on rumours, vague personal recollections, or things that other modellers say (given that they may be right, or they may be wrong).
You don't have to go so far as to start trawling the original documents at the National Railway Museum or the Public Records Office, but you should at least try to get some of the recognised books on the subject.
There are three books by Michael Harris on the LNER-built carriages, another of his on the post-1905 pre-group GN, ECJS and GN/NE joint stock, Ken Hoole's book on the whole of the East Coast Joint Stock plus the GN/NE joint, and for an insight into the way the stock was used the Banks and Carter book is important. Societies exist for the pre-group companies too, and in several cases they have published, either as individual books / documents, or as articles in the pages of their journals, detailed studies of the older rolling stock.
For handy drawings to 4mm scale the late Nick Campling's LNER Carriage Drawings book provides a good start. The enormous range of Isinglass drawings is also good, including many LNER carriage types and some from the pre-group period, all quite well annotated regarding history and changes.
You may find that none of the books answer ALL questions, and that there is disagreement at times between the sources of information, but if you've consulted all sources and you still have to guess how the model ought to be, at least your guesswork will be well informed!
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

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