3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

This forum is for the discussion of railway modelling of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard

User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by kimballthurlow »

I purchased this model at the Vectis auction on 26 March.
It is a 1:16 scale live-steam model of the NER Tennant #1463 and runs on 3 1/2 inch gauge track.
The original built in 1885 is owned by the National Railway Museum, York.
NER Tennant #1463
NER Tennant #1463
This model works and may be quite old so can do with some refurbishment.
The machine was well built though it appears with whatever materials were to hand at the time.
As an historical artefact I believe it is worthy of ensuring its preservation and future operation.
#1463 cab
#1463 cab
The thing is the vendor of this item knew nothing of its origins, having purchased it from a deceased estate and with no interest in it apart from disposal.
The reason for my putting up this notice is that a reader in this group may recognise this machine and possibly be able to furnish some information or provenance which would be useful to me.

Many thanks in advance.

Kimball Thurlow, Brisbane, Australia.
User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 6527
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

I'm afraid I know nothing about this particular example, or about miniature live steam generally, although I can see why the loco might be regarded as "likeable". In the context of working miniature steam, especially I suspect the older examples and those built in sheds by amateur engineers on a budget, the combination of exact details and approximations (out of scale where judged necessary for function) seems quite normal to me.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by kimballthurlow »

Atlantic 3279 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:47 am ..... those built in sheds by amateur engineers on a budget, the combination of exact details and approximations (out of scale where judged necessary for function) seems quite normal to me.
Hello Graeme,
Yes precisely ..... from my viewpoint.
Thanks for the response.
Asking about provenance is a long shot, but I would not presume to think there would have been great numbers built....

regards
Kimball
User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 6527
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

This topic now links up to some extent with the one about cab colours, here:
https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14097

Having now read what Ken Hoole wrote in his "An Illustrated History of NER Locomotives" I think the claret-coloured outside frames on this particular model of a Tennant loco suggest an attempt to portray the livery of the 1886-94 period when T. W. Worsdell was loco superintendent. Other models of a Tennant loco with black frames belong to the period after 1894, when firstly Wilson Worsdell and then Vincent Raven held the post.

The slight snag is that in order to agree fully with official T. W. Worsdell livery, the edges of the splashers, cab and tender sides should be in crimson lake, separated from the central saxony green areas by red-black-white lining. On that basis the livery of the model seems to be half and half :? .

The Fletcher livery, from the pre-Worsdells era, was different again, with a three-panel lining scheme for tender sides, and, I suspect, a different shade of green, perhaps with York, Darlington and Gateshead applying different versions of the livery.

In 1904 black livery lined red was introduced for NER goods locos, with a change to the style of lettering and number plates for black locos in 1917, so North Eastern livery certainly did change in several ways over the course of time.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
User avatar
greenglade
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 pm

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by greenglade »

Hi Kimbal...try asking on the MECH forum, there are some very knowledgeable model engineers on that forum. You will need to register if wishing to make a post.


https://modeleng.proboards.com/board/12/general-chat

Pete
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by kimballthurlow »

Hello Graeme,
Thanks for that information.
A used postcard of #1463 post-marked 1904 shows the valance in black as shown on the Arthur K model on the other thread.
A susggested, we may have a model painted for pre-1894.
Regarding the lining out, it has all been done by hand not even a bow-pen but likely a very fine brush.
1/2mm it seems in white, the black probably 1 1/2 to 2mm. The white is quite sketchy/whispy so it sort of fades in and out. I love it for its rusticity because it gives the correct impression in spite of the fact that the Worsdell scheme is not faithfully replicated.
But your note on that gives me the idea it might be done in the future!! Hopefully to a similar whimsical standard.

Thanks Pete for your referral to the Model Engineering Clearing House which I have now joined and will hopefully make good use of down the track for all sorts of things of which I am shamefully ignorant and un-practiced. My only claim is that my uncle who is now 95, worked for 44 years as a fitter at railway workshops in New South Wales. He did show me the basics on my watch-makers lathe, so it is only upward for me. And thanks for your continuous feed of progress on your 5" A3 Pacific, I find that interesting ... and quite overwhelming.

Kimball
4812
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by 4812 »

The reverse corners on the tender lining suggest that the builder intended his model to be in as-built, pre-Worsdell, condition, but the tender's extra coal-rail and plating are later mods. A fine model.
User avatar
richard
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3385
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:11 pm
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas
Contact:

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by richard »

My first thought was "weird proportions" (esp. the frame vs boiler) but then immediately "Tennant" - so I think the modeller did a good job that I could quickly tell what it was meant to be! Those sandboxes stand out - or to my eye they do!

The survivor is at Darlington "Head of Steam" - or was when I was last there ~6 yrs ago. Sandwiched between "Derwent" and the Raven Q7! I can't remember if the cab was open to visitors. At least one of them was - may have been the Q7.

As well as trying the model engineering folks, you could try the NERA. Even if they can't help, I'm sure they'd be interested in publishing an article on your researches...
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by kimballthurlow »

Hello Richard,
Thanks for your reply.

Yes I really like the machine, it is so indicative of how things used to be both in the real world and in the model.
My interest in the LNER has progressed over many years from GCR (one of my friends corresponded with George Dow), GNR and now NER.
When I realise that the NER was probably the largest railway company in the UK prior to 1923, it makes sense to show an interest.
1923 ..... I wonder how that will be celebrated?

Following Pete's advice I have joined the Model Engineering Clearing House.
I have already perused some discussion on boiler testing and certification which is quite educational.
I will get a closer insight by visiting the Queensland Society of Model and Experimental Engineers (QSMEE) which is across town 30km away. Brisbane is quite large.
This may be as soon as tomorrow.
It was suggested to me that I might need to separate the boiler from the machine for test purposes.
I can talk to the QSMEE boiler inspectors and confirm what is needed.

The sandboxes .... Yes they are iconic.
Interestingly the modeller has done the round box brass caps which are non-working.
But then put in the fine copper sand pipe down to the rail?

I will report further on any work I do on the machine and the results of any research as to how the model came to be.
I believe the machine should be preserved as an example of what it is.
So I am not interested in re-painting in spite of the fact there are dings and blemishes in the finish.

regards
Kimball
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by kimballthurlow »

Hi 4812,

Thanks for your input.
Yes I agree the plating on the tender rails seem later, and the model replicates the original very well.

A got advice from a model engineer who tested it on compressed air and found it ran forward, but not in reverse.
He said the valve timing was out which I sort of understand as meaning the valve cams on the cranked axle have to be shifted within the crank circle? ? ?
So I have started to dismantle the engine to separate boiler from running gear.
Then I can:
1. clean up the frame and motion so an experience person can get the valve gear timed.
2. get the boiler tested before re-assembly.

regards
Kimball
User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 6527
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Although the letters on the tender are much more widely spaced than those shown in the photograph in Hoole's book, the condition and livery (including inset corners to tender lining) otherwise appear to agree with what is claimed to be 1463 "in original condition". There is no discernible difference in tone between the central panels and the borders in that same photograph, so the loco seems not to be in the T. W. Worsdell official colour scheme. I am therefore curious about what came first, i.e. was there a period after Fletcher's reign and before "T.W." in which the "body" livery was green only, with much less ornate lining than Fletcher had used, but with inset corners, or is the photograph showing original mechanical condition but an early form of the Wilson Worsdell livery? If the latter is the case, the question of the frame colour returns...

Perhaps 4812 knows the answer, given his brief comment earlier?
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by kimballthurlow »

Atlantic 3279 wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:56 am Although the letters on the tender are much more widely spaced than those shown in the photograph in Hoole's book, the condition and livery (including inset corners to tender lining) otherwise appear to agree with what is claimed to be 1463 "in original condition".....
Hello Graeme,
Thanks for those observations.
Is it a B/W photo of 1463 in Ken Hoole's "An Illustrated History of NER Locomotives" ?
I may have to buy a copy.

The other fact of this model I have omitted is that all of the painting is done by brush.
It has been over-coated at some stage of its life in a darker green, the lighter shade appearing where some paint has flaked away or been rubbed off.

It does make me wonder if the hand-lettering and numbering were done after the darker green was applied or was it somehow masked off?

kimball
User avatar
Atlantic 3279
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 6527
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:51 am
Location: 2850, 245

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by Atlantic 3279 »

Monochrome photo in Hoole, page 40.
Most subjects, models and techniques covered in this thread are now listed in various categories on page1

Dec. 2018: Almost all images that disappeared from my own thread following loss of free remote hosting are now restored.
User avatar
kimballthurlow
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 432
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by kimballthurlow »

Atlantic 3279 wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:56 am Although the letters on the tender are much more widely spaced than those shown in the photograph in Hoole's book, the condition and livery (including inset corners to tender lining) otherwise appear to agree with what is claimed to be 1463 "in original condition". There is no discernible difference in tone between the central panels and the borders in that same photograph, so the loco seems not to be in the T. W. Worsdell official colour scheme. I am therefore curious about what came first, i.e. was there a period after Fletcher's reign and before "T.W." in which the "body" livery was green only, with much less ornate lining than Fletcher had used, but with inset corners, or is the photograph showing original mechanical condition but an early form of the Wilson Worsdell livery? If the latter is the case, the question of the frame colour returns...

Perhaps 4812 knows the answer, given his brief comment earlier?
Hello Graeme,
I have just purchased a download B/W image of 1463 taken in 1928 at an unknown storage location after withdrawal.
The locomotive is still sporting its NER colours and lettering, the latter of which appears to be the wider spacing.
The adjacent GNR tender indicates that repainting of some classes to LNER just never got done into the late '20s.
A rather good detail shot of a GNR tender anyway.
120-0100 NER Tennant 1463-Gateshead-1928-1600.jpg
Kimball
john coffin
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am

Re: 3 1/2 inch gauge model of NER express engine

Post by john coffin »

That picture seems to be from the run up to the SHildon 1825-1925 display,

Paul
Post Reply