Sonic Models A5

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Jim de Griz
NER J27 0-6-0
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Jim de Griz »

I'm aiming for the 1936-39 era so a bit early for the A5 unfortunately, though it is interesting that they might have ran on M&GNJR rails. Might be enough of an excuse.

I'll admit I've been leaning on the excursion traffic card to justify my A3 and D11, which particularly in the case of the A3 I thought was a little too fantastic. (But she was a present from my parents when I was a kid, so I was always going to find an excuse to run her)

Then I was browsing pictures posted online by Paul Johnson and came across these two delightful images.

C1 in Norfolk

B12 with Pullman Train at Sheringham!

I mean, the first seemed unlikely, the second even more so.....so my thought is, that if a C1 was sent in 1923, is truly implausible that an A3 might be sent in 1938 and given both J11 and D9's were sent in 1936/7, is it completely implausible that a A5 might have been tried out at a shed located at a station that was after all, never actually built in the first place!

I must admit I'm tempted :D

It also makes me wish I'd picked up a Bachmann C1 when they were still in production ;)
Hatfield Shed wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:11 pm I have now, and it is second radius plain track curve capable. But it is on the limit, won't tolerate any deviation from a smooth curve, no doglegs or bumps of any sort, and a reverse curve formed of two R2 pieces directly connected is liable to have it off the rails.

But the standard set track point with its R2 substitution radius is no go, carrying wheels fall off and the coupled wheels are tight on the main curved element, which of course is necessarily less than R2, because there are two straight sections in the curved road.

None of this is to do with the flanges, put deeper flanged wheelsets on and it will still derail: and there will be a further problem in that the bogie wheel flanges may well contact the front platform underside.
This is the concern though and thank you for making the test and letting me know the results. Sounds like she would have no problem on the majority of my layout, but there is one piece of bad trackwork where the R2 curve transitions to a straight that I know I need to replacing at some point because it has a small but noticeable kink (its ballasted or it would be out already) and unfortunately it is on the main running line so all my locos end up crossing it.

If I do go for the A5, it sounds like I'll need to bite the bullet and make that correction sooner rather than latter.

Jim de Griz
rockinjohn
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi, I am aware the areas I mentioned as an aside are ex.GER lines,only mentioning this because of the proximity to the MGNR line &(32A)/area sub sheds both relating to the British Railways era (small emblem)as per the model shown ,how ever some did carry the larger but not relevant to this area or time frame,the picture I saw was of an A5 in the Sheringham/Cromer Beach area @ a junction which could have been the connection from the GER to MGNR @ Cromer Junct.or Roughton Rd Junc.it was along time back so rest assured it could/did happen maybe not reaching Melton Constable but who knows?jj
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Chas Levin
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Chas Levin »

Hello all, I wanted to ask the assembled LNER expertise here about a livery question about the A5 (and about Sonic's versions).

Looking in Ernest Carter's 'British Railway Liveries', he does mention the A5 class in the LNER chapter, noting "1923 (c) The later engines of the "A-5" class were painted (15), described in sources as green, not black, which latter colour was the standard for L.N.E.R. tank types. The engines were however lettered in the standard L.N.E.R. style of the time. For some years after grouping, after they had been repainted glossy black, they continued to have a white line additionally to the standard red one, and continued thus until 1939."

For anyone unfamiliar with this 1952 book, Carter provides in the back a numbered painted colour chart and his number 15 is a green that some might judge darker than the usual apple variety, perhaps a little closer to the darker greens used by the GCR and GNR, though I know very well that judging colour shades is a contentious area. Here's a photo, taken in late afternoon daylight, with the surrounding colours removed, as noted in the book as being necessary in order to judge the correct colour registration of an individual shade - please ignore the slight difference in paint surface, caused by ageing of the book:
EFCarter15 lo 1.jpg
This early LNER green is presumably what Sonic have gone for in the L&NER number 6 and to my eye (on a computer screen mind you) the green of that version does look slightly darker than that on the LNER 5167 (the slightly later version with no ampersand). In fact I'd judge it to be the same shade as on the GCR version though again, I'm only looking online.

I hadn't realised that Sonic have also done two LNER lined black versions, 5024 with red lining (which would make it right for post-1939 according to Carter) and 5045 with double white lining, i.e. the black and double white panels that are part of the green passenger livery on side-tanks and bunker sides, with single white lining elsewhere. I'm not sure where that livery comes from though, so my first question is: does anyone know of an LNER black livery with white lining?

Going back to the note in Carter, my second questioon is: has anyone seen photographs of the combined red and white lining on LNER black livery that he mentions as having been used on the A5 from 1923 to 1939? I failed to spot mention in the book of any other black LNER locos having a two colour lining like that (and I'd not actually ever noticed mention of it in the book before for the A5).

Modelling it would be quite distinctive...
Chas
Jim de Griz
NER J27 0-6-0
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Jim de Griz »

Chas Levin wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:24 pm my first question is: does anyone know of an LNER black livery with white lining?

Going back to the note in Carter, my second questioon is: has anyone seen photographs of the combined red and white lining on LNER black livery that he mentions as having been used on the A5 from 1923 to 1939? I failed to spot mention in the book of any other black LNER locos having a two colour lining like that (and I'd not actually ever noticed mention of it in the book before for the A5).
I would be very interested in this as well. I’d been wondering what prototype the black with white lining was based upon

Jim de Griz
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Chas Levin
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Chas Levin »

I remembered another example of a black LNER freight loco with double lining, which some have suggested elsewhere is a double red line, some that it's red and white; might this perhaps be what was applied to the A5s?

Sentinel Shunter 148 1931 crop1.jpg

Given that the drag beam in this photo must surely be red, I think the inner line of the double lining is also red and the thicker outer line is white: what do other people think?

Apologies but I don't know the copyright holder; however, this picture - a works view on the Sentinel sidings - has been posted online before and dates from 1931. There's also a slightly earlier view from 1926 with double lining where the two lines are very clearly the same colour and almost as clearly red, at any rate certainly not white.
Chas
mick b
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by mick b »

White and Red there is a r.t.r version.
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Chas Levin
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Chas Levin »

You mean the ones commissioned by Model Rail Magazine, Mick? Their inner line is yellow though and, as you pointed out on the RMWeb Sentinel livery thread, both lines are considerably over-sized.
Still, this Sentinel Shunter livery might be the only other black based one similar to the A5 red and white lined scheme.
Chas
mick b
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by mick b »

Thats the one!! Memory going !! :shock:

Just found one , very poor lining !! :roll:

https://www.hattons.co.uk/342106/dapol_ ... tockdetail
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Chas Levin
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Chas Levin »

I bet they got that double lining either from the photo I posted here earlier or from another very similar one. I still don't know why they went with yellow though, when the LNER used white for so many lining jobs... unless they were thinking of the yellow / primrose / gold lining on teak coaches?
Chas
Woodcock29
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Woodcock29 »

In Yeadon Volume 21 (p36) there is a photo of a black 5045 with the double lining on tanks and bunker. It looks white but the text says white and red. So one question would be if it's white and red - what colour are the single lines on frames, vslences etc?

The photo below of 5046 is only single red lining. It's almost possible to think in that photo that there might be the red lining on the wheels or is this just my imagination?

It implies no others got the double lining. The double lining and single lining on 5045 does stand out extremely well making me question whether in fact it is double white. The single lines also stand out just as well. Far more so than the red lines in the photo of 5046 which is in quite a glossy black.

I'm still waiting on mine to arrive. I was charged for it on 19/2 but only got notification yesterday (28/2) that it was posted yesterday - a bit disappointing with lag between.

Andrew
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Chas Levin
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Chas Levin »

That's interesting Andrew, thank you, especially to anyone like me who doesn't (yet!) have that volume.

I'd have assumed that the single lines elsewhere than on the tanks and bunker are red, so that red is present constantly around the body, with white as an addition in certain places. I think it would look odd the other way round, wouldn't it? And Carter mentions "a white line additionally to the standard red one" (my underlining) - not conclusive I know, but persuasive, perhaps?

I take your point though about the double lines seeming to stand out so much more clearly than the single known red: the double lines on the Sentinel shunter photo appear to be much brighter than the 1926 photo with single red, but perhaps we also need to allow for changing light conditions?

Very interesting that the next number A5 along is clearly only single lined: it's quite possible that only a very small number - perhaps even only one - got the double lining and that Carter mistook that for applying to the entire class.

I can't remember whether it's Carter himself in his own book, or Ian Rathbone writing in his own book on painting and lining about using Carter's volume for reference, but one of them makes the point that Carter was writing at a time when there were still plenty of people around who remembered these liveries from personal experience. That's clearly a great advantage when it comes to judging and comparing shades of colour, but it can still allow errors of recollection over something like this, as to how many of a particular class had a certain livery applied.

Sorry to hear that your model's arrival is delayed - hope it'll be worth waiting for :)
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Hatfield Shed
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Hatfield Shed »

Woodcock29 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 12:32 am ...I'm still waiting on mine to arrive. I was charged for it on 19/2 but only got notification yesterday (28/2) that it was posted yesterday - a bit disappointing with lag between...
[TANGENT]
Sad fact about to be revealed, look away now if sordid truth about retail commerce is something you don't want to know.
Did you perchance preorder? I didn't and simply purchased when I saw they were in stock on the 14th and received it on the 16th. It was clear from comments on line, that I had my A5 well ahead of many who had preordered.

I know a 'retail software solutions' guy, and here is his explanation.

A retailer accepting preorders typically has two relevant business processes.
The preorder process builds a file for fulfilment, when the goods are available for dispatch to customers. If demand is healthy, it simply isn't possible to quickly augment the staff for swift fulfilment, such that the large accumulated heap of preorders is dealt with swiftly.
The regular order process receives orders and fulfils ASAP, and is typically staffed such that backlog is minimal, based on experience of typical order volume. It's completely separate from preorders, and quickly dispatches any available stock when ordered, because that's what it is set up to do.

Now there is a way around this, which integrates these two order processes to fulfil preorders, but this is a very hard sell, because the regular order process fulfilment performance is a competitive metric which customers perceive, when they compare the likes of Rails of Widnes, Hattoff of Kernow, and Trafford in Sheffield. And since the regular order process is much the larger volume, it gets priority...
[/TANGENT]

The solution.
'We' all agree to shun preorders. It works for me...
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Chas Levin
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Chas Levin »

Yes, that sort of double-level process had occurred to me to as being the cause. I work during the day in the pro audio industry and see something similar sometimes.
Part of it's just human nature: we make a note of something that will need doing in a few weeks or months and put that note somewhere safe, where it unfortunately gets temporarily overlooked in favour of something equally urgent that arrives and can be dealt with that day...
Not much comfort to Andrew or anyone else seeing others apparently jump the queue though. :roll:
Chas
Woodcock29
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Woodcock29 »

You're right Chas. I made my preorder the day I saw the announcement in 2021. But I'm not sure that explains the lag between them taking the money and actually posting it?

I'll send you a pm re 5045's livery.

Andrew
Jim de Griz
NER J27 0-6-0
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Re: Sonic Models A5

Post by Jim de Griz »

Temptation got the better of me and the spotters at Blakeney have a new number to record in their books.
A5 Spotters2.jpg
Still running her in, but as yet she handles the majority of my trackwork well, particularly she clears the 2nd radius curves without issue and goes through most of the 2nd radius points.

However, she won't reverse over the (old) three way point if it is set to any direction other than straight ahead and she is very sensitive to changes in track level, which is somewhat of a concern on certain baseboard joints and unfortunately my turntable. Both the rear pony and front bogie tends to lift off the rails if the driving wheels experience a fairly minor change in track level. (She seems to handle the new three way point well and will run over the old one forwards without issue)

All that said, as it turns out that means she runs well on all the parts of the layout I would expect to actually use her on (the bad joints are in the goods yard and I can't see me using her there much) with the exception of the turntable and that is already on my 'too do list' so a known problem and not the fault of the loco.

Jim de Griz
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