Gents, I am hoping that someone might be able to help me with a little information. I have recently purchased a number of 'Lawrence' and 'Goddard' rolling stock items, which included the following two items. I can find them both in the Peter Tatlow LNER Wagons book but it says very little about them apart from the fact that they are a Weltrol and a Flatrol wagon.
Could anyone possibly point me in the direction of further information, pictures etc. and possibly shed any light on what the possible loads were for these wagons. I suspect the Flatrol might have been for naval gun barrels but how they were secured remains a mystery.
Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you.
Naval gun barrels wouldn't have been secured using the longitudinal beams, wagons were built with specially shaped cradles to support the barrels along their (tapering) length.
The load - often transformers or other heavy machinery but theoretically anything fairly heavy which could be loaded - would be secured such that a large part of the load rested on the beams and was therefore carried directly by the bogies. Putting the full 50 tons (or whatever) on the floor of the wagon would bend it.
Is the 'Weltrol M' vac fitted? If not it's the wrong colour and I suspect it would be rated for much more than 20 tons.
There are loading instructions on the Barrowmore MRG website which although BR will cover wagons similar to these.
The Flatrol AA has been modelled from an actual photograph and is marked with the correct numbers and loading of 120 tons. There was only ever one made. The photograph shows clearly the two cradles with differing diameter semi-circular cut outs in them sat in the well. This seems to indicate that it has been made for the carriage of something tapered, which would rest on the cradles and then possibly something else would be sat on the top beams. This is obviously designed for a specific job as the two main side girders are actually very close together so there is no deck area as you would normally expect. Peter Tatlow's book also has a couple of pictures of two specifically built gun carriers with the breech cradle sat in the well rated at 140 tons. These have different bogie arrangements though, although still 12 axles.
The Weltrol is a little more confusing as it appears to be very similar in design to what is referred to in Peter Tatlow's book as a Flatrol DD, rated at 20 tons. The book however shows yet another very similar looking unit called a Protol F which is rated at 40 tons.
I strongly suspect that the Flatrol I have was designed for the carriage of gun barrels and the Weltrol I have was designed for a more general cargo of possibly transformers or heavy machinery.
I'm afraid I took the cradles for bits of wooden or cardboard packaging. The beams would be removed for carriage of a gun.
The beams and/or supports can be set in different positions or removed - Tatlow shows wagons of this general type with one or both longitudinal beams removed for different loads. Special wagons such as these were closely controlled and would be configured for the expected load before being dispatched to collect it.
The Weltrol as numbered is a LNER Dia 56 20 ton Trolley wagon.
2 were built LNER numbers 155016 and 155017.
They were built with independent right hand lever brake at end on both sides.
So the livery is incorrect, it should be LNER wagon grey.
The bogies and carrying frame on the Flatrol AA should not have enclosed tops, the
structure was exposed.
Thanks for the information Dave. Can you tell me how you know the Flatrol AA did not have enclosed tops? Do you have any other pictures or drawings you can point me at?
Ok, I know that Flatrol AA 235318 didn't have enclosed tops to the bogies and bogie supports as
I have an original copy of the LNER Diagrams of LNER Specially Constructed Wagons
4th July 1925. This clearly shows the open structure. There were 2 drawings listed
in the dia, these are GA 14372N and 14373N. 14372N does not exist, but 14373N arrangement of
under structure for bogies does exist. Drawing 14416N Layout & details of adjustable timber beams
exists.
I have not come accross any large LNER bogie or multiple bogie wagon where the structure has been
plated over, why would they waste the material and increase the weight for no good reason.
Unfortunatly you model is a work of fiction like so many of their creations. It shows only 2 body
beams, in reality the wagon in cross section had 4 beams, with 6", 5" and 6" gaps between.
I hope that helps.
Last edited by Dave on Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dave wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:55 pm
Unfortunatly you model is a work of fiction like so many of their creations. It shows only 2 body
beams, in reality the wagon in cross section had 4 beams, with 6", 5" and 6" gaps between.
Many thanks for your help. Please excuse my confusion but I thought that 235318 was a Flatrol AA and built in 1939. Do you not think this is correct?
Is that the Weltrol or the Flatrol AA you are referring to above? The Peter Tatlow book shows a photo of the Flatrol AA, with the number 235318, which looks very much like it has two beams.
Would it be possible to scan a relevant portion of the drawings you refer to so that I might have something to work with to improve the model?
Sorry my mistake it is the Flatrol AA not Weltrol I was refering to. I have amended my post.
There is an adendum to the book which was added later which shows your wagon.
Just to avoid confusion It's not the 2 timber beams I was refering to, its the structural floor beams that make up the wagon its self,
You can't see them on the photo's, just the external one is visible.
I doubt you can add the 2 extra floor beams there does not seem to be enough space between the two sides to accomodate them, as I mentioned there is an external side floor beam then a 6" gap, then a beam, a 5" gap on the centreline of the wagon, then a beam, then a 6" gap and the other external side floor beam.
I will see what I can do, but I don't have a scanner at the moment.
Thanks Dave. I have seen a couple of wagons with the four beam configuration you refer to so I know what you mean. Below is the picture from the Peter Tatlow book that looks to me like there are only two, obviously significantly larger.
Any help with a scan would be very much appreciated, thank you.
Further digging has unearthed the following, which may be of interest. It comes from a booklet published by the LNER in July 1931 describing how the LNER handles heavy freight. Perhaps it was published to distribute to potential customers.
In the booklet it shows a flat top six axle, double bogie flat wagon. The attached description includes the line: "The Flat Top wagons can be assembled into sets and specially fitted with cradles or pivotal bolsters for the conveyance of Naval Guns, Long Heavy Tubes, Heavy Girders etc." It also states that when assembled into sets weights of up to 155 tons can be carried. As the names of all the wagon types in this booklet appear to be made up of abbreviations of the type descriptions it could possibly follow that Flat Top wagons would be referred to as Flatrol wagons. This might also indicate that the Flatrol AA wagon is indeed made up of two of these Flat Top type wagons, perhaps with a modified design by 1939, with a bespoke manufactured centre section. Just food for thought. It does at least verify the existence of a double bogie, six axle, Flat Top wagon that was assembled into sets.
jwealleans wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:44 pm
...There are loading instructions on the Barrowmore MRG website which although BR will cover wagons similar to these.
Only this weekend I serendipitously acquired a lovely photographic record of one railwayman's experience of freight traffic on ER and MR, 1954 - 64, which made reference to 'anchor wagons', as often required when loading and unloading heavy loads such as transformers from SCV's. That's a detail I was completely unaware of. so when I get around to the 'Transformer A' there can be a couple of opens full of stone in the train to fulfill this role when it trundles past.
I have been looking further into my information on wagon 235318 as I was puzzled as to why my Dia book
shows a wagon that is different to the photographs. I found that the superstructure of wagon 235318
was used with new bogies to make Flatrol EAA 900675 (lot2893). The bogies were built by Head Wrightsons
and cost £3633 per set, 2 sets £7266. The understructure and bogies were used on Stator Set EA with
Parsons Beam. Parsons beam returned and understructure and bogies went under Weltrol ENN.
Weltrol EN 155018 is the only one listed so I'm assuming it's the same wagon, (I know this is dangerous
so anyone who can clarify this please do) is a 110ton trolley wagon with 2 body beams.
I trust this clears things up. So the model is correct in having 2 body beams but the bogies should
definitely not be covered, my dia book shows the rebuilt wagon 900675 but lists it as 235318, but does not show 2
beams but 4, very puzzling.
I have that publication and that wagon, or part of, made up no part of the Flatrol AA in any shape or form.
You are looking at a wagon with a plated top, buffers and drawgear at both ends and a pair of 6 wheel bogies
below with no buffer or drawer gear, you are not looking at a pair of 6 wheel bogies and underframe carrier,
which have buffers and drawer gear at one end only which are under 235318. Flat top wagons were coded FLAT for a reason, not Flatrol which is
another type of wagon. The Flat you show in the picture can be assembled into 2 or 3 wagon Gun Sets only
and are then provided with special cradles which were stored and fitted to the wagons at the Heaton Works, Walker Gate,
Newcastle. The cradles were condemmed 24-10-1953.
Nobody was ever questioning the existence of a double bogie 6 axle flat top wagon that could be assembled into sets so I don't
understand why it needed verifying ?.
"I have not come accross any large LNER bogie or multiple bogie wagon where the structure has been
plated over, why would they waste the material and increase the weight for no good reason."
Which led to the confusion.
Many thanks for the further research and the confirmation that the two beams would appear to be correct although with everything else being an obvious fantasy I might as well sling it in the bin.
